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 They broke my heart yesterday

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skazen21
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PostSubject: They broke my heart yesterday   Fri Aug 15, 2014 4:33 am

So I want to start this off by saying my huskies are very well trained. I am extremely proud of that. We have 2 of them. There is Reyna who is about 2 and 1/2. She is my darling girl. She has never hurt anything. She's afraid of cats! And we have Timber. He's the baby at only 9 months old. He's shown some aggression towards cats but is typically a baby and backs off if he gets scratched.

I would never have brought them into this situation if I had thought for even a moment that something like this could happen...

Yesterday I brought them out to my aunt's property. She owns about 11 acres and just got 2 goats. The huskies have been around her horses many times so I thought nothing of the goats. When we arrived no one was home at the time and I let the huskies go since they can be trusted off leash on a fenced 11 acres of property. Timber was barking at the goats which is normal for him when he is exposed to something new. Well the goats were scared of this. They ended up running into their chain link fence so hard the busted it open. One took off up the mountain and the female went the opposite direction. Timber immediately started and chasing the goat and Reyna joined in. I ran as fast as I could after them but they were so fast... I heard the first bite when the goat started screaming. I was frantic.. "Reyna stop, Reyna stop" screaming at the time of my lungs. They tackled the goat into the creek and I ran and ran to try and make it stop. A neighbor heard my screams and came running. We had to kick and beat them with sticks to stop the assult. They were going to kill this goat. They looked just like wolves....

They mauled her bad. She's alive and it looks like she will make it. I am just devastated. I didn't think they were capable of that level of savagery. Reyna especially. I can't look at them the same. They went from my babies to being animals. I still love them, don't get me wrong. And I've been extra careful not to make them feel as if they are neglected or being treated differently. I just...don't know what to do now.

Should I try introducing them to goats one by one on a leash.? Or should I make sure they never cross paths with another one?

Has anyone ever had a similar experience? I can honestly say that was the most traumatizing experience. The whole attack lasted a good 5 minutes and reminded me of documentaries I've seen of wolves hunting bison in the wild...

Sorry this is so long I just needed to get it all out.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:20 am

Siberians are known to have a high prey drive.  I strongly believe they should be restrained around all farm animals from cows on down to chickens - anything that runs or flies (just plain moves) will entice them to hunt.  

I am sorry you had to witness this and sorry for the goat.

Also - in New York State, the dogs, having an unprovoked attack on a farm animal, would be considered dangerous dogs and have to be on leash, kenneled or in house at all times.
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skazen21
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Fri Aug 15, 2014 7:50 am

I knew about the breed's tendency to have a strong prey drive. I have just never seen it in my dogs. Like I said Reyna is afraid of cats! And they grew up around horses. I don't know. It just seems so weird to have them snap like that. Seemingly out of nowhere.
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simplify
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Fri Aug 15, 2014 9:24 am

Being around new animals illicit different responses in dogs. You probably should have seen how they reacted to the goats while restrained before taking them off leash. Goats are a lot smaller than horses and smell differently to them as well. They obviously saw the goat as a prey animal where they view horses as animals not to disturb.

I brought Mishka to a hiking trail once and they have some local animals on display in enclosures. When he saw the deer...something perked up inside of him that I hadn't ever seen before. He went wild. If he had been able to go after it, I'm sure it would have ended horribly for the both of them.

I'm always of the proceed with caution mindset when it comes to my dog and animals big and small. You just never know what may set them off. Some they may see as friends, some predator, and some prey.

I'm very sorry you had to witness and go through this though, but I am glad to hear that the goat is okay.

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MiyasMomma
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Location : west Texas

PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Fri Aug 15, 2014 12:54 pm

I live out in the middle of nowhere Texas, ranchers everywhere. I slowly introduce Miya to everything, because I never want that type of situation. It must be very difficult for you. Ashleigh is right though, every situation is different. I'm more afraid of Miya being shot by a rancher for 2 reasons, at a distance she looks like a coyote and they want to protect their livestock before something happens.

I know Miya will stop chasing when I tell her to, she will stop herself at our properties edge. However, if we had 2 huskies I'm not so sure that would happen. If one is chasing the other will follow, it's instinct.

A guy who lives about 5 miles from us, has Miya's brother and he escaped went to a ranch and killed a sheep. The rancher was going to put him down. My friend begged the rancher not to. Rancher told him if he ever came back he would shoot him. Friend paid for the sheep and took it home. Here's what is strange, old fashion and gross thing. Friend proceeded to put the sheep carcass on his husky, made him wear it a week. Took husky back to rancher, and husky wants nothing to do with sheep. EWWWWW!! I said it was gross, but that husky will not chase sheep. In fact I didn't agree with this, it is an old fashion way of getting results. But honestly, if he would have introduced him to sheep, and he escaped, he would not have killed the sheep.

I feel strongly that even with the high prey drive, introducing your husky, where your in control, they will not harm another animal.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Fri Aug 15, 2014 1:43 pm

I want to add to OP, I personally believe it was because of 2 dogs that this happened. They are pack animals after all, pack instinct and drive kicks in. Had you had just one I don't believe it would have happened, you would have been able to call him/her off.

You may also think that my girl has a low prey drive and that would be way further than the truth. She chases my neighbors guinea hens every day, she could kill one if she wanted to. We taught her to bird hunt, because of her high prey drive. She is around big and small animals, she will chase any and all animals, but her desire to kill has ceased since training her to hunt. She caught a bird(a starling) back in the spring and instead of killing it, she proceeded to bring it to me, it whacked her in the face with its wings and she spit it out and it flew away. Also my neighbor has a small farm, with a husky. Miya and Zeke go to feed often, we are talking 6 donkeys, several geese, several ducks, several chickens, 2 deer, 40 guinea hens, pot bellied pig, a dozen cats, 2 other dogs, a fish pond with koi and frogs and I'm probably leaving something out. She might chase, but never has attacked. There's also the resident roadrunner, who are not very good at flying, that Miya has chased, she could kill it if she wanted to.

My personal belief is that I trained her non stop, introduced her to every creature possible and that's why she will not kill. She's off leash 100% of the time, unless we are somewhere that has a leash law/policy. I may just be lucky, but I do not have a fear of her killing or maiming another animal.
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skazen21
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Sat Aug 16, 2014 3:31 am

Thanks for telling me about Miya. I agree about the fact that there were 2 of them. I trust Reyna very much and I'm going to work on integrating her with goats. Timber probably will never be able to handle it. Its nice to know someone else has land and can let their huskies roam free. That was part of the reason I was nervous posting here. It feels like a taboo thing to say! The goat named Flower, by my 4 year old cousin, is definitely going to make it.

The more I think about it, I'm starting to consider it a blessing since all animals made it out alive. My babies weren't as perfect as I thought and now I can be aware that they have this side of them. I'm going to try my hardest to work on training them around different kinds of livestock. If it works then great. If not at least I know to be careful in the future.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Sat Aug 16, 2014 1:55 pm

It took me a very long time to trust her, some can be trusted, most can't. I'm with her 24/7/365, I don't work, only with her, haha. I trained on leash from two months old until 6 months just walking our property line at least 6 times a day, through out that process, we did other command training. Through that time we would take her to different places and specifically our neighbors little farm. Having Zeke around who is a year older helped, because he only chases the animals too, he grew up with them. He is a very untrustworthy husky though, he escapes often, could never do off leash with, and I fear one of these days when he does escape he could potentially kill something. Another neighbor has horses, we would walk her to them and talk her through the introductions, be nice, sit, stay, and had them sniff each other. Today the horses come running when they see us, and Miya has perfect manners with them, never runs when near them, doesn't try any quick moves with them. My husband taught her to dove hunt, she's a natural, even though everyone said it couldn't be done. We also trained with an e-collar, which is also a hot topic, and don't recommend unless you have a professional help you. With out any interference from me I have seen Miya stop herself at the edge of our property while chasing cats, squirrels, guinea hens, etc. We only have one piece of fence separating our property from our other neighbor which has a great big gap that anything can go through and she will not go through with out permission. I am saying all this not to encourage or discourage, but realize all this training started at 2 months(e-collar around 4-6 months), she will be 2 in November, she is never alone, so we are always together. Both topics are hot topics even here, I believe that there are only two of us here at the forum that are successful doing this, we both started the training when our pups were little. My husband calls me the animal whisperer, example my other neighbor has 20 full size horses, we went over to visit they all ignored my husband and all 20 proceeded to encircle me to get face rubs, I never met any of these horses, my husband was panicking because he couldn't see me, I said ok guys I need to see the rest of the place and they moved along and let me be on my way. It's was crazy, a few of them just followed me around the rest of the day.

I don't believe that most people have the time nor the patience to have the trust that I have with Miya. I also believe that the older the dog the less possible that type of trust can be found. However, I do believe that you can teach a dog to not want to be aggressive towards another animal. That's where you need to begin, start slow with short leash and work your way to a longer leash, with proper fencing and your hundred percent focus, perhaps you could do a limited off leash session with farm animals, but key is short leash with your short introductions. Sadly I don't believe you will ever be able to trust either one off leash, without proper containment and without you there with all your focus. Once a dog escapes, I feel they will always want to, no matter what you do.

Why I say that. Our neighbors husky, Zeke, has escaped numerous times, and the first several he would come to our place. He wanted to play with Miya. I would let them play and then Miya and I would walk him back home. Then he would come over, play and when Miya and I went to walk him back he would take off again. It was a bit crazy, she knew we needed to bring him home, he had no interest in listening to me or her. I told my neighbor, that from now on we will go to their place to play. They are afraid to have him play with her off leash in their own yard. They don't understand why he does this, I told them no exercise is why, they will not listen. Miya and I take our walks past him everyday, twice a day, and he cries and cries. I would love to have him come with us, but he is untrustworthy, it can't happen.

I illustrated all this, to help you and others know, that huskies when introduced correctly and are supervised can be great with other animals. I will never say never about Miya taking off or attacking another animal, but my heart says she wont because of my training. Most people do not have the time that I have devoted to her. Miya knows the basic commands, sit, stay, wait, drop it, leave it, speak, shake, bed time, let's go, lay down, and down. But she also knows inside, outside, be nice, be gentle, get it, let's check the mail, let's have breakfast, go jeeping, go for a walk, stay with me, stay on the path, watch them. She also knows hand signals of come here, sit, lay down and stay. That is just off the top of my head. She's eager to learn, make me and her happy and wants to be with her people. I can not say that for most dogs, and huskies in particular. I do have a very special girl, we have an incredible bond, but it's all because of the huge amount of time we spend together, and on how very, very difficult she was as a baby. I can't tell you how many times I cried, because she was so out of hand and down right mean to me. So I put on my big girl pants, determined that I would have a great dog. 90% of my training has been done with out treats, she's not a big treat eater, and all has been done with positive praise, no rarely has crossed my lips, but a hug, pet and good girl is always done, and she thrives with that.

Renee
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Sat Aug 16, 2014 8:28 pm

I should also add - we have 30 acres, too. It is my dream to be able to roam the property with Ami off leash but he is no where near that, yet. I have just begun e Collar training with him and when he's good and solid on that, we will be installing a wired, invisible fence. BUT, he will have to be rock solid on the boundaries before he's let off leash out of the fenced back yard - my neighbor has beef cows, turkeys, guinea hens, ducks, cats...they are off limits. We have wild rabbits and deer - within the boundary, they are fair game. If he does not show rock solid respect for the boundaries, then he will continue to be leashed outside of the back yard. I do not want to make enemies of my neighbors. Also, with one dog and the cows - I am more afraid for the dog than the cows - one good kick and sayonara, Ami Sad  Also, the rabid raccoon is a conundrum we have resolved, yet...
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Sun Aug 17, 2014 1:56 am

It takes a lot of patience Amy, I know you have wanted that enjoyment with him for a long time. Out of all animals mentioned throughout all the posts, raccoons are the only thing I haven't seen here. That as well as the OP's experience must have been alarming for you, both. Miya has a lot of respect for cows, since a longhorn charged her when she was about 6 months old, my husbands says if you're going to be dumb you'd better be tough, haha, she keeps her distance. Across the dirt road they have cows and sheep, she just sits and watches them. The husky I grew up with killed everything, cats being the only thing that wasn't wild, and for some reason she knew not to kill our cats, just strays, very odd at how they understand what is and what isn't fair game, for the most part of course. Miya did have a run in with a goat and he nudge her with his horn and that was enough for her on chasing goats. I wish I could video tape her, she's very similar to Jen's Dizzy in that she will look back at me to see where I am and occasionally comes back to me just to say hi, lol. Boundaries are key though, every morning she does the sniff walk that we did when she was a pup, she does the whole perimeter always the same way, and I sit have my morning coffee enjoying my hard work, very rewarding.
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TwisterII
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PostSubject: Re: They broke my heart yesterday   Mon Aug 18, 2014 11:48 am

@MiyasMomma wrote:

Here's what is strange, old fashion and gross thing. Friend proceeded to put the sheep carcass on his husky, made him wear it a week. Took husky back to rancher, and husky wants nothing to do with sheep. EWWWWW!! I said it was gross, but that husky will not chase sheep. In fact I didn't agree with this, it is an old fashion way of getting results. But honestly, if he would have introduced him to sheep, and he escaped, he would not have killed the sheep.

Had a black dog that was a chicken killer my friend's dad did this with. People still tie train around here for certain situations. She was a bad case. Had to dip the chicken in chili powder and tie it to her. While not recommended, it worked for her when introductions and ecollars wouldn't. In her case, it was stop killing or be killed. She was a husky border collie mix of some kind with a very intense prey drive. It is an odd technique usually only used on outdoor dogs that can't just simply be kept inside and always on leash when out.

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