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 Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions

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TwisterII
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Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 12:24 pm

I've found myself between a rock and a hard place and may have to bring another dog into our household on pretty short notice.

As a recap or for those that are new, Kenzi is leash and gender aggressive. We have successfully introduced her to males and had no issues but females have been a problem since day one when she met my husbands female beagle/dalmation mix, which happens to be the dog that we may be forced to bring home. Cammie (husband's dog) recently killed one of the in-law's dogs (food aggression incident) and now they don't want her. I'm looking for new approaches to introduce the dogs possibly using scent. If anyone has any ideas I would love to hear them. Right now we are mulling through a thorough bathing and then from there am not sure whether to try a direct meet after the bath or perhaps trying to make Cammie smell like one of us, or one of the other dogs? I've heard some people make the old dog lay on something the new dog has laid on sometimes. I've heard a lot of things but was wondering what you all think, especially those that have delved a little harder into the psyche of dogs and their reactions and processing of scents.

As I said, rock, meet hard place. Rehoming isn't an option since my husband has had this dog since it was a puppy. He would just as soon rehome Kenzi (not happening) so if the dogs absolutely can't be made to get along we will essentially be living in a broken home where dogs are shuffled in and out of the house in schedules so they never get the opportunity to interact and hurt each other.

_________________
Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwab0VUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwam5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37SqqdUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37Sm5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  XcwxC0CUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Xcwxm5
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amymeme
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Senior
amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 12:40 pm

Jenn - I have no experience with this so can only offer my sympathy as we are essentially doing the "broken home" bit between Ami and cat.

I do know, that after a year, we had an unexpected meeting between cat and dog with cat on the front step while I took dog on leash out the door. Cat didn't run but mewed and stuck here neck out towards dog. Dog didn't try to eat her but instead, stretched his head out and the two touched noses and sniffed (with me holding as tightly as possible on a very short leash)

So, maybe in addition to the scent thing, initially, keep all contacts strictly under control (didn't you keep Keno crated initially? Don't remember the details.)
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TwisterII
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Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 12:52 pm

When we got Keno we bathed him then only let them see each other through a glass door for a couple nights, then we let her see him through the crate to get her reactions. I have video of that part in her scrapbook. then after a couple meetings through the crate we let them out in the sunroom for them to adjust. Since I can't leash her with new dogs it's very difficult to keep things tight, but at least in the sunroom she couldn't get him too far out of reach. We attempted a similar meeting with a puppy here a while back, female, and it didn't go at all as things had with Keno. She tried to rip the kennel apart, but on the one hand the puppy was about the size of a small cat so on that account I'm not sure whether the prey drive was an issue or if the female part was an issue. Kenzi has attacked my dad's female dog but never bothered the male dog that lives at the same house. But for that matter she could have been attempting to take my dad's dog's role as alpha.

_________________
Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwab0VUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwam5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37SqqdUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37Sm5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  XcwxC0CUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Xcwxm5
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RachelNala1694
Adult
Adult
RachelNala1694

Male Join date : 2013-12-27
Location : Michigan

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PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 5:47 pm

Nala has the same problem she is food toy treat aggressive so I'm interested in seeing what people have to say, since i plan on adopting in the next year. But it seems like Kenz is trying to be the alpha female which is Nala's role as well at the home, have you tried them meeting outside in the backyard? I know that a larger environment helps the ease the tension a bit.
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seattlesibe
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Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

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PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 6:38 pm

Or even better than the backyard,  have them meet in a neutral environment and then the first thing you do is walk them together for 30 minutes. Almost more importantly,  remain relaxed and have zero tension on the leash or in your attitude.  

More often than not, by far, it is we who carry baggage or problems for our dogs and not our dogs themselves.  It is absolutely possible to train this problem away, but it starts with you. I get the impression your approach is set and "it is what it is."

How would you, for either one of you having this problem,  say you feel in both attitude and physically when you approach another dog or when the guarding starts?   More importantly,  how do you react when the situation escalates?
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http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
RachelNala1694
Adult
Adult
RachelNala1694

Male Join date : 2013-12-27
Location : Michigan

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PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 6:49 pm

I just watch Nala carefully, when I can tell she is going to show her aggression i take her out of that situation and place her in a different area, it seems that when she is distracted she doesn't even worry about the other dog.
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seattlesibe
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Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

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PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 8:07 pm

Okay, distractions and redirections are great bit they don't make any progress towards working on the problem.

Does the situation make you scared or nervous or tense?
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TwisterII
Senior
Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 8:18 pm

She is leash aggressive which makes meeting on neutral ground very difficult and walking together even more so. We attempted that approach with a male dog nearly a year ago. Spent several hours in a deserted parking lot trying to walk them at different distances and running her through tricks in his presence and was never able to get it where she wouldn't go after him the instant he was in her reach. To get loose leash when another dog is around would be to just drop the leash.

I have spent thousands of dollars on professional training to deal with her aggression and have only managed to extend her threshold for how close dogs can get before she gets defensive. We have done hours of positive reinforcement attempting to desensitize her to other dogs and create positive associations. Males she is willing to tolerate but not females.

To an extent there are nerves on my part. I've dealt with her aggression and multiple attacks for two years. I know what her triggers are and what is coming when faced with a situation I can't avoid with her (off leash dogs at park). So any advice on how to cut my nerves would be great. I've been breaking up spats all my life so my nerves are probably less than the average persons. She is the first dog I have had though that seems to go into a black out rage when it comes to new dogs.

I think what I'm looking for with the scent thing is perhaps a way to throw her off so that maybe she will at least look at the new dog before trying to tear her apart since usually her issues are automatic. If any of that makes sense.

_________________
Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwab0VUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwam5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37SqqdUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37Sm5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  XcwxC0CUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Xcwxm5
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seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

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PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 9:20 pm

What types of trainers have you paid for ? Just curious.
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http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 9:26 pm

Are you certain it's the sex of another dog?

If you're out walking around and another dog is approaching, are you saying it's only females she reacts to?
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TwisterII
Senior
Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 10:21 pm

When she is on leash, it is any dog. When she is off leash it is females. If a stray male walks up to the fence of the yard she will get excited but is ultimately fine. A female though she will try to pull through the chain link.

We've worked with basic obedience, but my main trainer is a behaviorist that has specialized in law enforcement training, search and rescue, and therapy. He's also a rehab trainer that takes in abused pitt bulls. We have had much progress with training but no magical break throughs that makes introducing dogs easier.

_________________
Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwab0VUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwam5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37SqqdUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37Sm5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  XcwxC0CUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Xcwxm5
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amymeme
Senior
Senior
amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 11:11 pm

Mannnn, Jenn. I wish you luck. Just intuitively, no experience, I would meet on neutral ground at a distance, maybe not even try to have them actually meet. Then I would keep them separated and let them gradually become aware of each other.

What's the issue with the other dog - food aggression to the point of killing another dog? I hope it was a huge size discrepancy thing. Any chance that one can be an outdoor dog?
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seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyFri Jan 02, 2015 11:36 pm

Yeah, I'm sorry Jenn. This is such a dynamic situation and it's so difficult to offer advice online with an aggressive, dangerous dog involved.

This seems Iike a rehab case at a board and train, rather than just basic training.
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TwisterII
Senior
Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptySat Jan 03, 2015 12:28 am

I am really hoping that the in-laws will find it in them to keep her once they have had time to cool off. While the dog is food aggressive the fact that the other dog died was an unusual turn of events that couldn't have been foreseen. And since the dogs were in the care of a friend that was house sitting there are probably other details surrounding the spat that have been neglected. Regardless of the details though a dog did still die.

I wouldn't say there is a huge size difference between the dog that died and the dog that did the killing. Cammie was a little taller and a little heavier but nothing like the size difference between Kenzi and cammie would be. Kenzi will have a good 6 inches in height on the other dog.

It is very difficult and I understand that. We have learned a lot about Kenzi and what her past may have been like throughout our training but learning how to manipulate her thoughts hasn't been one. Every time we learn something new to try it is an opportunity to learn something new about her. I try to not look at anything as a failure. Even knowing what doesn't work tells us something and helps steer us in the right direction.

Not sure we have any board and train facilities in this state. I will have to check.

_________________
Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwab0VUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Egwam5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37SqqdUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  N37Sm5Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  XcwxC0CUsing scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Xcwxm5
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Hughie
Adult
Adult
Hughie

Join date : 2013-04-17
Location : South East Wisconsin!

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptySat Jan 03, 2015 10:56 am

I think Jeff's advice of board and train is sound. I'm a firm believer in working with your own dog but this sounds like problem best left to a real expert.
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seattlesibe
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Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptySat Jan 03, 2015 11:10 am

@Hughie wrote:
I think Jeff's advice of board and train is sound.  I'm a firm believer in working with your own dog but this sounds like problem best left to a real expert.

And, in a neutral environment without the influence and associations of the normal human family.
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RachelNala1694
Adult
Adult
RachelNala1694

Male Join date : 2013-12-27
Location : Michigan

Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  Empty
PostSubject: Re: Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions    Using scent integration with gender aggression and introductions  EmptyMon Jan 05, 2015 12:32 pm

gosh i feel your pain Jenn, Nala is the same way its SO nerve wracking and frustrating especially when you want to bring a new dog around, its hard i wish you the best of luck!!!
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