A forum for owners of the Siberian Husky.
 
HomeFAQSearchRegisterRegisterLog in
Congratulations Mars and Polly!, our June HOTM winners! HOTM - July : TBA!
Husky of the Month
Congrats Mars and Polly,
our June HOTM Winners!
Spring Cleaning!





Thanks to all for this month's entries!
Forum Rules
1. Here we prefer clarity to agreement. Obviously not everyone is going to agree on a topic; here we prefer to talk out our differences in a respectful manner to ensure mutual understanding and respect.
2. Read the Stickies and Announcements. Each sub-forum may have specific rules which trump the Forum Rules in cases where there may be conflicting information. Read the rules of each board before you post so that you are clear on the expectations of the staff.
3. Respect ALL Staff and Admins. These people volunteer of their time and MUST be respected as well as their word adhered to. They are responsible for maintaining a free, open, clear and organized forum. Anyone found to be openly undermining any official ruling by a staff member will be warned.
4. Signatures: One picture only and no links. Images: To keep the forum looking neat and tidy, we ask that members insert just one picture only in their signatures. The picture should be no more than 200x500 pixels and should be of an appropriate subject, for example, your dogs and their names. Should you need assistance creating an appropriate signature, please PM an Admin and we would be happy to help! This is to ensure that signatures remain a welcome addition to our forum instead of a cumbersome distraction. Links: Hyperlinks in signatures--unless to a personal blog or photo stream of your dogs (like Flckr or Piscasa, for example)--are strictly prohibited. Please PM a staff member with any questions or concerns regarding this rule.
Rescue Spotlight
Our current rescue spotlight is:

Tails of the Tundra Siberian Husky Rescue!

Top Dog Website Award Winner!

Top Website
for
Siberian

Huskys


Share
 

 Is this normal in a pup?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next
AuthorMessage
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 5:10 pm

@seattlesibe wrote:
There was a guy named Randy from Wyoming on here over a year ago and he was a breed historian of sorts, super smart guy--I miss having him here, and I'm pretty sure it was he who said that in the Husky eye color of each eye is determined genetically independent from one another unlike the case in most animals, rendering bi-eyed genetically normal, or not an abnormality.   So, not the same as heterochromia.

I wish I could find that thread.

Hmm, I will do some reading into this. Would be great the see a different opinion on it!
Back to top Go down
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 5:20 pm

Hmm, I'm not so sure that's correct,  theoretically.  

If we are discerning what is abnormal then by necessity you have to consider what is normal.  The default sets the table to distinguish variation or deviation.  

So, if two different color eyes is normal in the breed, then two same color eyes is Not normal in the breed....because there can be no normal as far as eye color.   Neither is "normal" because normal contains no default if this is true.   Deviation requires a default,  by definition.  

Heterochromia is the term for a genetic deviation in the determination of eye color.

This can not be true in the Husky IF homochromia is not the default.  

Hence, bi-eyed simply refers to the phenotypic expression,  while not referencing the normality of any genotype.


Last edited by seattlesibe on Thu Jan 15, 2015 5:31 pm; edited 2 times in total
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 5:24 pm

I'm pretty sure this plays in to why this is not considered disqualification in the show world for the breed standard, whereas a heterochromic doberman would be disqualified,  I'm guessing.
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 5:27 pm

Sorry for typos. I'm on my phone on a bus. All clear now.
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 5:48 pm

I think we are perhaps confusing genotype normality (defaults) from percentage of phenotype expression in the population (statistics).
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 6:09 pm

I think i am focusing on the literal definition of heterochromia, a difference in coloration in two anatomical structures or two parts of the same structure which are normally alike in color.

So in my mind, no matter what the cause of two different coloured eyes, it is referred to as heterochromia, simply for the fact that the eyes are two different colours.

Thoughts?
Back to top Go down
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 6:58 pm

Right, so just phenotype, the actual expression. Got it.

The real question is whether or not it is true that eye color in the breed is determined independently or not, thus, whether or not homo- or hetero- chromia is normal, or default.

That was my suspicion, you were focusing on effect, and I on cause.
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 8:16 pm

Yeah. I *think* in the lab, we would refer to any type of different coloured eyes as heterochromia, so in tgis context, all bi-eyed are heterochromia, but not all heterochromia is a genetic abnormality.

I definitely am intrigued by this now Razz Especially since Kesler is bi-eyed. Going to do some in depth research now Very Happy
Back to top Go down
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 9:16 pm

Awesome,  I was hoping you were a biology study with access to to resources Smile

I conferred with my partner who is a molecular biologist but he hasn't responded yet.

Basically,  we are trying to find the reason *why* bi-eyes, or heterochromia, is so disproportionately expressed in this breed compared to other breeds.    

Sound right to you?

Seems there could be two major explanations:

1) it has indeed become genetically accepted, meaning that heterochromia is just as normal as homochromia.   Or, the genotype of the breed has changed or adapted. Eye color is determined independently,  not together as a pair.

2) the genotype has not changed or adapted, and homochromia is default,  normal. Heterochromia is a genetic abnormality in the breed like in humans, other dogs, etc. But, this particular phenotype has been selected for repeatedly, creating a higher proportion of these genes in the breed gene pool.  It's been normalized by phenotype,  not genotype,  as it is still a genetic abnormality,  or mutation...etc.


How does that read for you?

Thank you by the way.  I'm loving this conversation.  

Oh, if you're on a computer try searching here for "research grant", "hetero or homochromia" other thread should pop up.

Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 10:06 pm

I am loving this too! Love topics that get the wheels turning. I'm on my phone at the moment so will do the search tomorrow.

I think you've hit the nail on the head regarding what the ultimate question is.

I think I'll also delve into some veterinary genetics journals and see if I can find some studies that explore this topic.

This is going to be fun!
Back to top Go down
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyThu Jan 15, 2015 10:09 pm

God speed Smile
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
Niraya
Breeding Subject Moderator
Niraya

Female Join date : 2011-08-30
Location : Easton, Pennsylvania

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 11:18 am

Just want to throw this into the eye color discussion (just because) - Blue eyes in the breed is not actually recessive but the gene(s) that cause blue eyes in the breed are as of yet undiscovered and unknown and the "sp" gene (piebald) can affect eye color and parti-eyes may or may not be linked to that gene.

It is not referred to as Heterochromia in the dogs.

/end random comments

_________________
Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Eyes_p10

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Oil_pa11
Back to top Go down
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 11:45 am

So I guess my follow up to that would be:

What is the reason for the term not being applied specifically to huskies?  Based on the definition, any colour differentiation would be refered to as heterochromia.  Is this just a "best practice" based on people, specifically people in the dog breeding world?
I am legitimately curious about it!  Just because I have no experience in dog genetics. And in nonspecific genetics, we would refer to any eye colour differentiation as heterochromia, regardless of the species of the affected.

Thoughts?
Back to top Go down
Niraya
Breeding Subject Moderator
Niraya

Female Join date : 2011-08-30
Location : Easton, Pennsylvania

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 12:09 pm

I don't know for certain but I don't think the term is used to describe two different colors in eyes in animals not just specific to the breed.

I want to say because science is the reason the term isn't used but I don't actually know. In the talks I've had with my red girls breeder about genetics and what little research I used to do in it in my own - eye color and eye color inheritance is just widely unknown (as far as I know) in the breed. There are very few studies regarding eye color inheritance.

More studies are being done regarding coat color in the breed and that is what I'm slightly more familiar with (but in very generic and basic terms and understanding and what I've learned on my own and via mechtas breeder as she and her dogs have been involved in many of the studies)

_________________
Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Eyes_p10

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Oil_pa11
Back to top Go down
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 1:33 pm

So complete heterochromia is the scientific term for two completely different coloured eyes, there was some discussion earlier in the thread regarding whether the term applies specifically to huskies, as bi-eyed huskies are not considered to have genetic abnormalities.

My point about the term was that it describes the actual appearance of the eyes, rather than the reason behind it (genetics/acquired/magic ect).

So now we are trying to find the reason why bi-eyed (or heterochromia) is so much more common in huskies (and other certain breeds) than the vast majority of other dogs.

Basically, Jeff and I have taken this discussion to scientific levels to find out the reason behind bi-eyed huskies.

We seem to have that common interest Razz

Also, just wanted to note, I would never use the term heterochromia in every day conversation Razz When people who are not familiar with huskies ask about Kesler's eyes, I just simply say he is bi-eyed.

I get so many people asking me if he is blind in that eye....i guess it is a common misconception about bi-eyed dogs/animals/people.

Anywho....lunch time Razz
Back to top Go down
Niraya
Breeding Subject Moderator
Niraya

Female Join date : 2011-08-30
Location : Easton, Pennsylvania

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 1:41 pm

I've not heard the term "bi-eyes" specific to the breed. I know other breeds that have it and use it.

I know genes like merle and (my lesser understanding of piebald) could have something to do with eye color.

Merles have blue/bi eyes (relevance being many breeds with merle also have bi eyes) and I know things like extreme piebald affect pigmentation which brings with it health problems (deaf/blind).

_________________
Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Eyes_p10

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Oil_pa11
Back to top Go down
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 2:16 pm

I didn't mean that the term bi eyes is specific to the breed.

Just doing some research as to why bi-coloured eyes are more prominent in huskies
Back to top Go down
Niraya
Breeding Subject Moderator
Niraya

Female Join date : 2011-08-30
Location : Easton, Pennsylvania

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 2:19 pm

Apologies then. Lol I apparently am incapable of understanding English today.

_________________
Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Eyes_p10

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Oil_pa11
Back to top Go down
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 2:21 pm

lol, no worries, we all have those days!

I was just getting confused and was about to go re-read what I had written previously Razz
Back to top Go down
Niraya
Breeding Subject Moderator
Niraya

Female Join date : 2011-08-30
Location : Easton, Pennsylvania

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 2:23 pm

I swear I should not be allowed to use a phone while sleeping lol.

_________________
Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Eyes_p10

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Oil_pa11
Back to top Go down
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 3:05 pm

Ahahah,, you and me both!
Back to top Go down
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 3:45 pm

Ceara, I'm excited to see you back. Thanks for helping out. I was gonna hit Jen up today to maybe tip you off on this conversation.



@Barczewska wrote:
I didn't mean that the term bi eyes is specific to the breed.

Just doing some research as to why bi-coloured eyes are more prominent in huskies

That, plus whether or not it is a genetic f' up (defect, mutation.....?? proper scientific term??) in a Husky like it would be in a human; is it the default for the pair of eyes to be the same color in a Husky?
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
Barczewska
Puppy
Puppy
Barczewska

Female Join date : 2014-07-21
Location : Ottawa, Ontario

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 3:50 pm

^^ That

Razz


Did you manage to get the input of that molecular biologist yet Jeff?

I haven't had time to do that search yet (been scrubbed in to a cleanroom all day, without a computer), but hopefully my phone will co-operate and let me search it at home.
Back to top Go down
seattlesibe
Senior
Senior
seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
Location : seattle, wa

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 3:54 pm

Ha, no.  He was overwhelmed with work yesterday and was in bed by 8:30, and I got home from work an hour later.  

I'm pretty sure his suspicion would be that it is just a case of the heterochromia phenotype gone wild, through diligent selection by breeders over the years.  

But, to me, that is more of an explanation for the predominance of blue eyes generally, not specifically heterochromia/bi-eyes.   That, to me, seems more of a behind the scenes genotype issue considering how uncommon it is amongst animals generally and how common it is in this one breed of dog.
Back to top Go down
http://www.k9convergencetraining.com
Niraya
Breeding Subject Moderator
Niraya

Female Join date : 2011-08-30
Location : Easton, Pennsylvania

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jan 16, 2015 3:57 pm

@seattlesibe wrote:
Ceara, I'm excited to see you back.  Thanks for helping out.  I was gonna hit Jen up today to maybe tip you off on this conversation.  

Well thank you sir! I have missed you and your witty banter! Jen text me yesterday about the black puppy thread and I was browsing and found this. Smile if ever you need or want to get a hold of me yourself I can send you my number, email Facebook... Whatever. Let me know.

Somewhere I think there is an eye color article in Debbie color group on Facebook but searching is hard to do on a phone...plus lazy

_________________
Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Eyes_p10

Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Oil_pa11
Back to top Go down
Sponsored content




Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Is this normal in a pup?   Is this normal in a pup? - Page 2 Empty

Back to top Go down
 

Is this normal in a pup?

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 2 of 3Go to page : Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

 Similar topics

-
» Are these normal costs for start-up?
» Squash blossoms appear to be falling off. is this normal?
» It Was A Normal Day Until!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
» Grow Light Bulbs
» 2 sources have 2 different planting dates?

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
It's a Husky Thing - Siberian Husky Forum :: Advice and Discussion Forums :: Miscellaneous Questions-