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 Shock Collar Inquiries

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tyler.jenkins.125
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PostSubject: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:18 am

I am looking to get solid recall with Koda. She isn't terrible about coming back, but there has been a time or two she has gotten out, and I've had to walk a while to get her back. I've been working on it pretty hard with her, training in the house, then outside on leash, and so on. I was considering a shock collar to train with recall; because, if she gets out, it's next to impossible to get her back. I have a friend who has an akita and she uses/used a shock collar to train recall , and her recall is flawless.

So my questions are as follows: Do you recommend a shock collar? What Brand? She is almost five months old, so is she too young for one? Where is the best place to learn to use the collar in the most effective way? I know it's all about doing it at the right time, I just need to know where to learn how to time it. Are there any health risks?

Thank you in advance for any responses!
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 11:47 am

I use the educator mini. I like it because it has 100 levels which make it possible to get just enough correction without too much. I first tried a short dog but it had only 14 levels, 7 on low and 7 on high which meant if I had to boost, sometimes I had to switch levels which is not convenient when squirrels are involved lol!

A member on here, wpskier, has lots of good advice. She recommended I try loucastle.com for basic protocols on how to determine levels and train for recall. I found his articles very helpful.
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tyler.jenkins.125
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 1:53 pm

Squirrels and birds are 95% of the problem! It's so bad!

I'll look both of those up. In general, Ami responds well to it? She isn't too young to start using one?
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:17 pm

@tyler.jenkins.125 wrote:
Squirrels and birds are 95% of the problem! It's so bad!

I'll look both of those up. In general, Ami responds well to it? She isn't too young to start using one?

Oops, forgot to reply about that part - the recommendations is generally to start at 6 mos or older.

When I used the sport dog, Ami did not respond to level 2 or 3, and the next level up was too high and resulted in a temporary velcro dog. I returned it, waited a month and started completely over. The educator mini also has a "tap" or vibrate setting which for many things is sufficient to control Ami.

Ami is now on an invisible fence at home. I love it - he gets to roam at will on about 4 acres, the collar beeps a warning and he "steps away from the boundary" lol!
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tyler.jenkins.125
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:27 pm

I'll snoop around and try to find an educator mini. I porbably will wait until she's six months then. I might research methods of dealing with it this month, and then start her on the collar next month. She is kind of a danger to herself if she gets out. I live in an apartment pretty close to a major interstate, so I would HATE for her to get out without me having full control of her.

Because it's an apartment, I can't have an invisible fence, but oh how I envy you. Thant must be so nice to just let him do his thing!
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:30 pm

@tyler.jenkins.125 wrote:
I'll snoop around and try to find an educator mini. I porbably will wait until she's six months then. I might research methods of dealing with it this month, and then start her on the collar next month. She is kind of a danger to herself if she gets out. I live in an apartment pretty close to a major interstate, so I would HATE for her to get out without me having full control of her.

Because it's an apartment, I can't have an invisible fence, but oh how I envy you. Thant must be so nice to just let him do his thing!

I got my educator mini from Drs Foster and Smith. Its widely available, amazon other places. I looked for long return policy and free shipping.


I understand the fear - we are at my son's and Ami is in the house due to the heat.  There are 3 small children here and I am close to paranoid over one of them opening the door and letting him out.  I've taken to locking the deadbolts to slow things down.  At night, when he sleeps in the basement, I barricade, lock AND bolt the basement door Rolling Eyes
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tyler.jenkins.125
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 2:48 pm

My roommates have people over all the time who fling the door open all the way and just leave it open... It's a constant state of fear for sure! To say we've had some close calls is a bit of an understatement...

I'm going to look on amazon for it now. If I used it at a lower level at this age, do you think that would be fine, or should I just wait until she's six months?
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 3:51 pm

look at petsafe pawz away products - they make one for doorways. I think the risk/benefit ratio in this instance warrants the product. Unless you can use a taser on the dumb a#### that have no clue. I would be livid.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Jul 09, 2015 5:23 pm

I to use an e-collar successfully, Amy gave you a great site with Lou Castle. The doorway product also is a good idea, similar to Amy's e-fence. E-collars are a useful tool especially for training recall, Miya is very good at recall, and haven't actually used any function, except for the tone in over a year. It is best to wait until she is a little older as Amy suggests. as far as negative effects, we have experienced none, but you have to know what you are doing and train correctly, if not yes negative things can happen. Read Lou Castle's website, you will gain a world of info. I still put Miya's on everyday when we go out, she thinks we are going on an adventure. The educater or the dogtra are probably the best out there, multiple levels, I do suggest that you get one with a minimal range of 1/2 mile, collars are used based on line of site, in an urban environment, buildings, fences and even trees will lower the effectiveness, so the farther the distance, the better it works, Lou also goes over that on his site. Good luck and let us know how things are going.
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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:03 am

I am pro e-collar, however you should only do it with the assistance of a professional. The entire point is so that the dog associates the irritation with the behavior, not you. Make sure you don't do this alone and that you start very low.

We used the e collar to train one of ours not to jump on me while I was pregnant. That is all we used it for and now it is being lended to another Siberian owner. I personally don't feel the need to use negative reinforcement for anything else with my dog, but I couldn't have him jumping on me when I was pregnant. Now he never does and is just fine with that.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:18 am

Considering that the problem is puppy getting out when people leave the door open, I think the best solution (other than moving Rolling Eyes ) is the pawz away threshold barrier - this won't train recall or any of the other things an ecollar can do but it WILL keep puppy safe in the apartment!

http://store.petsafe.net/pawz-away-threshold-pet-barrier
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Fri Jul 10, 2015 9:43 am

Hi. I haven't been around the forum much lately, so I'll write a bit, but drop me a pm if you want or need more advice and I'll give you my email address.

I initially stated with the e-collar when Dizzy was about 7 months. I used it for recall as well, because, like you, I worried what would happen if he ever got away from me. Fast forward to now (he's 2 years old), and we enjoy regular off-leash walks. In the last 3 months, I've also taught him to heel using the e-collar and extinguished his leash reactivity completely.

The most important thing is how you conceive of the e-collar. Do NOT think of it as a punishment tool. If you see it that way, you are already on a dangerous path and could potentially cause long term damage (you sadist, you Evil or Very Mad ). You must think of it as a communication tool, a tool to break the focus/fixation on whatever she's after and return to you. As Megan said, you need to teach the pup that she controls the discomfort. If she is focused on you, and comes back to you, the discomfort stops, if she does not, it continues.

Personally, I don't think 5 months is too young, however, in your case, I think you should wait, unless you do as Megan suggests and hire a professional. I don't necessarily agree you must hire a professional trainer, but I do think if you want to start the e-collar use now you should. Reason being, puppies are more impressionable and if you make a mistake, you'll create a traumatic memory she'll hold onto longer than an adolescent/adult dog would.

Something you can start to work on right away would be threshold training. Teach her that she's not allowed out that front door without an invitation. I would actually go a step further, and create a box around the front door using tape on the floor to basically serve as a line that she does not cross unless commanded to, I'd use the command "let's go". For this, you could use the e-collar now, with only the vibrate feature (make sure the shock setting is on 0). Allow her to wander around the house dragging her leash and when she crosses the line, hit and hold the vibrate button until she leaves the box, the second she leaves the box, release the button. You don't need any verbal communication to achieve this, the less the better, as she's learning that she controls the vibrate. If she can't figure out that the vibrate stops when she leaves the box, gently guide her out with the leash, still no verbal communication.

I would also put a sign on both sides of your door that has her adorable face on it and says:

Please don't let the wolf out,
She'll run off to the wood to eat little red riding hood.

Or something cheesy and silly to alert guests, and remind your roommates, that they need to be careful with her.

Here's a great video specifically about e-collar recall training:



Here is one on thresholds:



In case you can't tell, I love this trainer! They also have an e-collar foundation DVD that I think would be great for you.

Lastly, here is Diz last summer and the reason that I am a firm advocate of e-collar training, it let's him be a dog, but allows me to keep him safe.

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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Fri Jul 10, 2015 2:51 pm

@tyler.jenkins.125 wrote:
I am looking to get solid recall with Koda. She isn't terrible about coming back, but there has been a time or two she has gotten out, and  I've had to walk a while to get her back. I've been working on it pretty hard with her, training in the house, then outside on leash, and so on. I was considering a shock collar to train with recall; because, if she gets out, it's next to impossible to get her back. I have a friend who has an akita and she uses/used a shock collar to train recall , and her recall is flawless.

So my questions are as follows: Do you recommend a shock collar? What Brand? She is almost five months old, so is she too young for one? Where is the best place to learn to use the collar in the most effective way? I know it's all about doing it at the right time, I just need to know where to learn how to time it. Are there any health risks?

Thank you in advance for any responses!

I have only positive things to say about them and if my boy could type he would tell you he loves his expanded freedom to run, play, swim, etc and gets to live his life off leash. When he hears the little buckle on his collar jingle when I pick it up, he comes running cuz he knows he is gonna go out and have fun!

I highly suggest a water _proof_ one. Not water resistant, but rated as "submersible" as huskies like to swim!!
I have and recommend the Sport Dog SD-350 (aprox $150) You will have to use the longer contacts it comes with for huskies because of their thick coats. Keeps it's charge for long periods of use. Read the training instructions and maybe the video it comes with.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Fri Jul 10, 2015 3:31 pm

We had the SD-150, and yes water submersible, the range was terrible. We do not have a fenced in yard, and we have acres and acres of farm country where we can hike, and the e-collar helped us to have the freedom Miya needs. We did upgrade to the SD 1800, it also allows us to incorporate a second dog when we get her and she is old enough to be trained. In fact we did stick to the Sport Dog e-collars, because my husband found it easier to use, since he was already familiar with it. I did a lot of research on brands, and every review online had Sport Dog, Educator, and Dogtra as the top 3 brands recommended. All were similar priced, the only downside to the sport Dog products as Amy said was the nick levels, however, the sport dog includes nick, vibrate and tone only features, which I do like. The levels of intensity, for me was a non issue, we determined the one level where her focus would be directed to us, and left it at that level, we didn't see a need for fine tuning or adjusting, however, I think that really amounts to personal preference and how you want to train.
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Sat Jul 11, 2015 7:16 pm

Ok, busy weekend! Thank you all for the advice. It's given me a lot to think about. I'll probably go to the pet stores we have around and look at some, as well as watch some YouTube videos and things to find the right one, but it looks like all of you are saying either sport dog, educator, or dogtra so I'll probably price those out. I'm going to buy one and start using it soon, so I will keep you all filled in on how it goes.

I love this forum so much! You guys are so helpful and informative. It's really nice to not only have a means to discuss my issues I'm having, but also, it's almost like a community of people who love talking about their dogs as much as I do. So thank you guys for being so helpful and supportive! It means a lot that all of you took time out of your day to give me advice!
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tyler.jenkins.125
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 12:26 pm

So, we are getting very close to 6  months, and I'm very ready to start training recall with the electric collar. Here are a few I'm looking at. They are all at bass pro because my family has a credit card or a rewards card or something with them.

Dogtra ARC E-Collar Dog Training System

RedHead RH3 Series Electronic Dog Training System

D.T. Systems Micro-iDT Plus Remote Electronic Dog Training Collars

Which one looks like the best bang for the buck?
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:03 pm

Cross the redhead and DT Systems off your list. There are only 16 levels, which means the intensity from one level to the next is too big a jump. Meaning, a 3 could be too little and a 4 could be WAY too high.

The dogtra Arc looks really cool (i have a dogtra 1900), but I'm wondering what the contact points look like, and what options they have for thick haired dogs. I had to order special prongs for mine that are made by a different company. Might be worth researching it a bit more to make sure the contacts are the same as their other collars so you can swap them out.

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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:13 pm

This is the one you have? The prongs look pretty short on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:15 pm

This is the one I have, per Jenny's suggestion, and you can order extra long prongs for it that work through Husky hair:

http://www.amazon.com/Educator--300-E-Collar-Remote-Trainer/dp/B007RBDUTS/ref=sr_1_1?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1438877704&sr=1-1&keywords=mini+educator

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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:23 pm

A lot of people have said go with educator. I probably will end up getting this one. Now to just pick a color... The cheetah print is a tad bit unnecessary... lol!

Unless you have the cheetah print, in which case it's so cute...

You order the longer prongs from amazon?
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 1:26 pm

I did, I can't find the link right now but they're there somewhere.

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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:41 pm

My only 2 cents to add Tyler, make sure what ever one you buy has a minimal distance of 3/4 miles. Interference from trees, buildings, fences, etc., will shorten the effective distance for the collar to work.
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 2:52 pm

The educator mini is only 1/2 mile BUT...I don't let Ami out of my sight so its really not applicable. If you are using this as a field trainer for a bird dog, that might be an issue.

The really neat thing about the educator is it has a light so at night, walking in the dark on roads with no sidewalk, I turn on the light so Ami is more visible (I also wear a safety vest, a lighted hat, carry a flashlight and a blinking red light on a lanyard. Yup. I paranoid lol! People drive FAST on our country roads affraid )
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar Inquiries   Thu Aug 06, 2015 3:01 pm

My suggestion to Tyler, is to cover his basis on a younger pup, who may take off with out an exceptional recall. He also mentioned that family has a hundred acres, you can lose line of site quickly on a hundred acres with a smaller dog, having an e-collar that will carry 3/4 mile or more, imho, is worth getting. I read this on Lou Castle's web site, that in city interference can lessen the distance as well. Again though, just my 2 cents.
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