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 Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?

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Nush
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PostSubject: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:51 pm

A little while ago my best friend moved in with me and began helping to raise my new puppy. He said I should feed her raw eggs because he did with his dog and it makes the coat shine. Given that it had been 13yrs since my last husky puppy and that I had JUST lost her to liver failure (a condition I believe to be initially caused by the Pet Food Recall of 2006/7 of which she was a victim) I wasn't taking any chances with her diet and took it up with my vet.

My vet said there was an enzyme in the yolks that has been known to cause blindness in huskies, at least that is what I heard. I believe my lack knowledge and research on the topic may have altered my hearing so I did my homework. I found that there is an enzyme that inhibits the biotin produced in a dog that gives them their glossy coats and that it is actually a MYTH that eggs give good coats and, instead, one can use something as simple as soybean oil (vegetable oil) or the more trendy fish oils and achieve much safer results.

There is also the slim (but still possible!) chance of salmonella poisoning. As for the blindness... I really don't know if I just heard her wrong but I did include a few links below that were the least technical and most palatable for the average reader in regards to this topic.



http://izismile.com/2010/11/09/tilted_tens_dont_feed_your_dog_10_pics.html

http://www.lowchensaustralia.com/health/dietno.htm

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100811120341AAgQq5E


Last edited by Koda on Thu Feb 10, 2011 1:23 pm; edited 6 times in total (Reason for editing : edited title, by Admin.)
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 6:54 pm

Hmmm...I've been feeding my two raw eggs for a long time and so have my parents and many raw feeders I know, etc. I'm VERY skeptical, but when I have time I will read up on this.

I reserve judgment until then, but welcome other opinions and responses. I do not claim to know anything for sure Smile

PS- I'm sorry about your husky that died. That is terrible Sad

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:11 pm

In the very last link you posted it says in there:
"Raw egg whites contain a protein called avidin, which can deplete your dog of biotin, one of the B vitamins. Biotin is essential to your dog’s growth and coat health. The lack of it can cause hair loss, weakness, growth retardation, or skeleton deformity. Raw egg yolks contain enough biotin to prevent the deficiency, so this is not a problem with raw whole eggs."

Problem solved, feed the whole egg. Smile

I'm on a lot of forums and know a ton of people who feed whole raw eggs on a regular basis to a wide range of different breeds and have only once heard of a case where eggs were to blame for a problem and that problem was hair loss. So it may be something to keep in the back of one's mind but I don't think it really is bad enough to warrant not feeding raw eggs. Cooked eggs do not have this problem but most people who feed raw eggs feed the whole thing and not just the egg whites.

As for salmonella, dogs' stomachs are a lot stronger than ours and salmonella is no issue for them.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:26 pm

I don't think it should be dismissed so easily, though. I'm still looking up the blindness link and there does seem to be a correlation between eggs and not just the biotin inhibitor (the fact that it inhibits at ALL should be enough of a deterrent, not to mention there are FAR safer substances to use for a better coat) but with a genetic issue that can be triggered in the Sibe.

There is, IMO, enough information to cause one to reconsider this superfluousness addition to the diet.

edit: EVERY search I do on raw eggs with regard to feeding to dogs says not to do it.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:37 pm

You're right and I'm not dismissing it. I just don't have the time right now to get into detail or do the extra research on it right now. Please do share what you find on both sides of the aisle when you do because it's good to know.

However I don't think people include it as a "superfluousness addition to the diet". I actually haven't heard of people adding it for skin and coat, most people use fish oils for that and other supplements. Eggs are a good food and I have not seen substantial evidence to suggest otherwise.

I just don't think your title for this thread is really what you want to get across, it is a bit misleading especially since most of the issues with eggs seems to be centered on raw egg whites, not the rest of the egg or cooked eggs. Too many people read titles or just the beginning of the first post and don't bother to do much extra reading, I'd hate to send a bunch of people out thinking eggs are bad for dogs.

This is a good topic and I'm interested to hearing more of what you find.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:08 pm

oh no, now I'm confused bounce I've been feeding Darla one raw egg once daily. Although sometimes it loosens her stool.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:16 pm

I believe in order for raw eggs to actually be harmful you'd have to feed them like a hundred a day. There was a study done on it that I remember faintly.

Salmonella isn't anything to worry about with a dog. Their stomachs can handle way more than ours, that is a favorite "anti-raw" line from a vet.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:18 pm

@Nush wrote:
edit: EVERY search I do on raw eggs with regard to feeding to dogs says not to do it.

You'll find garlic on almost all "do not feed to dogs" lists but it's still fine in moderation, just like eggs.

I've still yet to see anything about raw egg whites related to blindness. Is your vet the only source of that info so far? My new ex-vet told me last week to shave my husky. I'm glad to see you researching this stuff but don't dive off the deep end just yet.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:27 pm

i feed my 2 cooked eggs they each get an egg or half of one about every week, when i make breakfast on the weekends. they also are given half of a yoke from my hard boiled eggs every now and then. if they are such a GREAT food for us how is it so bad for them?

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:30 pm

Raw feeding and Bacteria:

http://rawfed.com/myths/bacteria.html

Many clinical nutrition books discuss biotin (one of the water soluble vitamin B complex) as being an essential nutrient which can be bound by avidin, which is found in raw egg white. This binding prevents it's absorption from the gastrointestinal tract. Fortunately cooking deactivates this effect of avidin, and egg yolk is so high in biotin content that biotin deficiency does not occur when whole raw eggs are fed. So, whilst biotin deficiency is a potential problem - in reality it is unlikely to be seen in domesticated animals unless they are fed an extremely imbalanced ration that is predominantly egg white.

On the positive side - raw chicken egg white does of course have some nutritional value and contains the following :

88.3% water
9% protein
Trace of fat
Trace of carbohydrate
Minerals -
Sodium - 190mg/100g
Chlorine - 170mg/100g
Potassium - 150mg/100g
Phosphorus - 33mg/100g
Magnesium - 11mg/100g
Calcium - 5mg/100g
Vitamins and vitamin precursors
Tryptophan (an amino acid and niacin precursor in dogs and other species but not cats, mink or fish) - 2.6 mg/100g
Riboflavin - 0.43 mg/100g
Pantothenate 0.3 mg/100g
Folate - 13 mg/100g
Biotin - 7 mg/100g
Vitamin C - 0
Vitamin D -0
Vitamin E - 0
No dietary fibre
36 kcal energy per 100g

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:33 pm

Please don't change the title of my post.

Site after site says not to do it. While there may be a "debate" here that is no reason to alter my title.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:40 pm

While I appreciate anyone's enthusiasm for a particular topic, rule #3 is listed as "Respect all Admins and Staff members." I am the administrator of this forum and I'm sorry- if I change a topic title, that is MY decision and I am allowed to do it.

I understand your viewpoint but I don't like to label ANY title as a given when the topic has proven debate. Check the other titles of the forum and I think you will find the same. If I have missed one, it's not been on purpose. I am changing the title back, and if you don't like it I will lock the thread and that will be that. I would prefer not to do so though because I enjoy open debate and people maturely stating their experience, opinions and findings. This an educational forum and the topics and titles are designed for people to easily find and access the information they are looking for. So please obey the rules of this forum. I would hate to issue my first warning.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:49 pm

On the topic of certain foods to avoid.. what foods should I be avoiding? My lab got into some avocado once and puffed up like a balloon. When I looked it up on the internet it said that it was toxic to dogs, while the vet said, it's not toxic to dogs, your dog is probably just allergic to it. So any one know for certain what foods to avoid? I heard onions were bad, and grapes.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:54 pm

Wow. This isn't a site for "sharing" information unless you're a mod, obviously.

I love how, the one time I ask about shaving a husky I'm asked if I'm "kidding" and serious and given a flaming (oh but it was just a joke about a banner!) about NOT shaving my husky when ALL I was asking for was information.

Now, I give information and, because people are dogmatically attached to behaviors and information they can't even back up, my posting title is altered and I'm warned that I could have my post locked.

Interesting how LITTLE information seems to be shared and how MUCH ego seems to surround the "debate".

Wonderfully supportive and open site this is! I must have picked the wrong husky site because I'm learning NOTHING here but the OPINIONS of a few people.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:55 pm

also.. the tile sucks. this is about what NOT feed your dog.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:00 pm

@Nush wrote:
Site after site says not to do it.

You will always find sites that are pro and con to any topic. Have you looked at sites that advocate feeding raw eggs at all or just "do not feed" lists? It just seems all one sided and like you're taking what several sites and your vet have told to be gospel. You'll find tons of vets and pro Science Diet sites on the internet but is there another side? You bet there is, dig a little deeper and make the decision for yourself, not based on a list someone came up with that says no eggs.


@j.gabriel wrote:
On the topic of certain foods to avoid.. what foods should I be avoiding? My lab got into some avocado once and puffed up like a balloon. When I looked it up on the internet it said that it was toxic to dogs, while the vet said, it's not toxic to dogs, your dog is probably just allergic to it. So any one know for certain what foods to avoid? I heard onions were bad, and grapes.

There are a lot of lists of foods and plants that can be dangerous to pets. Some list items like eggs, garlic, and peanut butter for example that are fine in moderation but can be problematic if overindulged.

The major ones to avoid I'd say are grapes (and raisins), chocolate, onions, macadamia nuts, avacados, coffee grounds and beans, nutmeg, apple cores and seeds, tomatoes to a degree (but very small amounts are not problematic), and of course cooked bones. I'm sure there are more that I'm not thinking of right now.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Tue Feb 08, 2011 11:06 pm

1. The only topic being discussed in this thread was the topic of raw eggs, hence the title change. We can make it more inclusive if you like.

2. Of your lists, only ONE was an actual credible source. Yahoo Answers and a random person's blog do not count.

3. People HAVE posted information, backed up and legitimate in response. You've been ignoring it.

4. If you have gotten offended by people wanting to discuss a topic, then forums are not for you. It seems like you have been offended anytime someone has even suggested that something you said might be wrong.

I would reevaluate what you want to get out of a forum and the attitude in which you approach topics. People are disagreeing with you based on scientific information. This world isn't perfect. Scientific studies yield different results. This forum is about presenting your information, findings, and experiences and letting everyone decide for themselves.

If you choose not to feed raw egg, that is just as much your prerogative as someone who chooses TO feed raw egg.

This is a final warning. More attitude like this and this thread will be locked. Let's continue this discussion maturely and without further incident.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:10 am

@Nush wrote:
Wow. This isn't a site for "sharing" information unless you're a mod, obviously.

I love how, the one time I ask about shaving a husky I'm asked if I'm "kidding" and serious and given a flaming (oh but it was just a joke about a banner!) about NOT shaving my husky when ALL I was asking for was information.

Now, I give information and, because people are dogmatically attached to behaviors and information they can't even back up, my posting title is altered and I'm warned that I could have my post locked.

Interesting how LITTLE information seems to be shared and how MUCH ego seems to surround the "debate".

Wonderfully supportive and open site this is! I must have picked the wrong husky site because I'm learning NOTHING here but the OPINIONS of a few people.

I'm really sorry you feel this way but from all of your posts here you seem to be set on the idea that raw eggs are terrible, and should not be fed. It doesn't appear that you are interested in debate or discussion.

If you are looking for information to support what you heard somewhere, you will find it. Doesn't mean it's factual or unbiased AND it doesn't make it incorrect either. I feed raw to my dogs. Prey model. Do you know how many vets tell me i'm killing my dogs? Or how many people think that my dogs will turn "blood thirsty?" I'm not mocking you, at all. But if you look online there are hundreds upon hundreds of "credible sources" stating that raw is absolutely terrible and shouldn't be fed unless you want a dead dog.

Yet, kibble is what they push? Kibble that companies WILL ADMIT has euthanized animals in it? They push Science Diet left and right and if you look at the first ingredient is corn.

This is a very open forum and there are many different viewpoints everywhere you look. But simply stating that raw eggs are bad and crediting Yahoo! Answers will not get you far. There is nothing wrong with discussing your views and showing your sources which are at least somewhat credible.

I hope you will join back in the conversation and show some sources on the blindness effect as i've never heard of that and would like to know how that factors in.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 12:43 am

Just a side note, I wouldn't ask vets(unless they are holistic, as they research further into this usually) on any information about what to feed your dog unless they extended their studies in nutrition, as they only take a brief course over it. I was going to school to be an animal nutritionist and have taken several credits worth of classes and have easily outwitted your typical vets and they will admit it is not a subject there is much depth in. If you look at the foods offered by vets- Science Diet, Purina, Iams Royal Canine- they have very poor ingredients and are full of fillers that should be excluded from a dog's diet and they only carry them because they are endorsed.

That is all I have to say though. I feed raw eggs and that is my preference. Not much to say.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:01 am

@Koda wrote:
1. The only topic being discussed in this thread was the topic of raw eggs, hence the title change. We can make it more inclusive if you like.

2. Of your lists, only ONE was an actual credible source. Yahoo Answers and a random person's blog do not count.

3. People HAVE posted information, backed up and legitimate in response. You've been ignoring it.

4. If you have gotten offended by people wanting to discuss a topic, then forums are not for you. It seems like you have been offended anytime someone has even suggested that something you said might be wrong.

I would reevaluate what you want to get out of a forum and the attitude in which you approach topics. People are disagreeing with you based on scientific information. This world isn't perfect. Scientific studies yield different results. This forum is about presenting your information, findings, and experiences and letting everyone decide for themselves.

If you choose not to feed raw egg, that is just as much your prerogative as someone who chooses TO feed raw egg.

This is a final warning. More attitude like this and this thread will be locked. Let's continue this discussion maturely and without further incident.

ONE person listed the nutritional qualities in eggs. I would not call that scientific. My post stated that I was giving the EASY version about why raw eggs are not good ALONG with lists of other bad food items. I will now include a more through list as it was stated by many they did not have the time themselves to do so.
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:03 am

This was done in a matter of a few minutes of research as I didn't keep my links from my previous research. I feel that it is, as many experts below state, to BIG of a risk to take to feed your dog this food. If people want to take those risks, so be it. Here is the information I found. I am still looking up more on the blindness issue.


Regardless of how many or where they are obtained, an egg should never be fed to a dog raw. Raw egg whites react with the vitamin, biotin, and prevents a dog from using it; in fact, feeding raw egg whites is the way scientists produce experimental biotin deficiencies in a laboratory. Secondly, the protein present in an egg (specifically in the white, or albumin, of the egg), is more readily digested when the egg is cooked. Cooking whole eggs provides the best possible protein available to a dog, and the egg yolk is a good source of fat. When using eggs to increase the value of protein in commercial foods for an adult dog, never add more than one egg to each pound of food or it will be wasted.

http://www.siberianhuskyvic.org.au/caringforhusky/caringforhusky.html#_Toc473805176


_________________________

Blindness in Siberian Husky / Correlation with raw eggs triggering genetic defect
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogt%E2%80%93Koyanagi%E2%80%93Harada_syndrome
http://wrongdiagnosis.pubs.righthealth.com/topic/Vogt%E2%80%93Koyanagi%E2%80%93Harada%20syndrome?as=clink&ac=1437&afc=2168586466&p=


__________________________________

You can give a raw ORGANIC egg OCCASIONALLY. But continual use of raw eggs will cause the coat to become worse because it leads to a biotin deficiency. Raw egg whites contain avidin, an enzyme which ties up biotin (makes it unavailable for absorption into the body). Symptoms of biotin deficiency include dermatitis (inflammation of the skin), loss of hair, and poor growth.

http://en.allexperts.com/q/Ask-Veterinarian-700/raw-eggs-dogs.htm

________________________________________

more lists which say yet MORE of the same:
http://www.healthypetu.com/wellness/home__travel/poison_dangers_is_your_dog_at.aspx

____________________________________

MORE:
http://www.doils.net/v1/links/128122783.pdf

"Food intolerance may be associated with any dietary ingredient, including additives. Most basic food ingredients have
the potential to induce an allergic response, but the majority
of dietary hypersensitivity reactions are caused by proteins.
The most commonly recognized causes of dietary sensitivity in
dogs and cats include beef and dairy proteins, other meat
proteins and EGGS, lactose and gluten. Elimination diets that
have been successfully employed in dogs and cats include
lamb, chicken, rabbit, venison and various fish species; these
are typically fed with rice or potatoes as a source of carbohydrate."


http://www.wrongdiagnosis.com/v/vogt_koyanagi_harada_syndrome/intro.htm


___________________________________________
and AGAIN... on the INFREQUENCY of using eggs:

Eggs and eggshells are other ingredients that often appear in homemade dog food recipes. Pet-Grub.com warns not to feed raw eggs too often, since it can cause a loss of biotin, a B-vitamin. The site recommends that "eggs should be soft-boiled to kill the avidin, which is the cause of the biotin problem." Eggshells should be dried overnight and finely ground before mixing it with the meat.

_______________________________________

Raw Eggs – Can cause two problems. First, they can
contain bacteria such as Salmonella & E-Coli. Second, there
is an enzyme in raw eggs which interferes with the
absorption of a particular B Vitamin. This can cause skin
problems as well as problems with your dog’s coat.

http://www.helptheanimals-crete.com/FOTAissue9.pdf


http://www.5stardog.com/dog-food.asp
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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:20 am

I'm sorry. None of your links are actually credible sources in my eyes. Wikipedia is never a credible source and NONE of your sources are scientific studies or show evidence of problems caused when people feed raw egg regularly to their dogs. Have you checked raw diet forums? Spoken with people who feed raw egg daily?

Further, your sources continuously state, RAW EGG WHITE. Egg white and whole eggs are not the same.

Seriously? We could play this game all day. This is five minutes of research as well, just on google. All of these sources are either canine magazines, raw feeding forums with people who have fed raw for decades, veterinary articles, and other credible sources.

http://www.barfworld.com/html/barf_diet/barfdiet_specific.shtml
Quote :
WHOLE EGG
Eggs are absolutely brilliant nutrition for your dog. Eggs are a whole food, and often regarded as being the perfect protein source. It is the one against which all other proteins are measured. Eggs contain a full compliment of minerals, including excellent levels of calcium (mostly in the yolk), all the vitamins except vitamin C and a range of high quality saturated and unsaturated fatty acids, the nutrient lecithin and the whole range of enzymes and other longevity factors always present in raw foods. The shell is removed in order to balance the calcium requirements in a natural diet. Egg yolks are an essential food for a dog with skin problems. They contain sulphur containing amino acids, biotin, vitamin A, essential fatty acids and zinc.

http://www.wellvet.com/feedingdogs.html
Quote :
Eggs are great to feed, and can be fed cooked or raw. We recommend no more than a couple of eggs a week, if fed raw. Cooked eggs can be fed a little more frequently.

http://www.totallyrawdogfood.com/Faq.aspx#faq_17
Quote :
Raw eggs are a wonderful source of protein, essential fatty acids and calcium when fed whole, including the shell. Some manufacturers coat the egg with a waxy substance to maintain freshness. If that is the case, do not feed the shell to your pet.

http://www.k9magazinefree.com/k9_perspective/iss17p12.shtml
Quote :
WHOLE eggs (raw or cooked) fed daily to pets offer numerous health benefits, according to Dr Ian Billinghurst B.V.Sc (Hons), Bsc. Agr, Dip. Ed, Australian veterinary surgeon, author and long-time advocate of feeding raw whole food to pets.
[This article is actually all about eggs being nutritional for dogs, supported by numerous vets.]


The point is that there are plenty of misinformed people out there. Did you know that you can feed raw chicken and chicken bone to your dog? However, go look out on the internet. I guarantee you there will probably be more out there telling you not feed it than advocate it. The chicken bone is perfectly healthy and only splinters when cooked. In fact, bone is an essential part of the raw, prey model diet.

I applaud your research but I urge you to find more credible sources and speak to people who feed egg daily. All of us here have done so, have mentors that do so, have had our parents do so, and others who have studied animal nutrition who do so! We're not trying to discount that raw egg doesn't have its risks, but those risks are practically non-existant when egg is fed in moderation and in whole form.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:29 am

@Koda wrote:
scientific studies or show evidence of problems
Key words here. People can put whatever they want on the internet, but unless it is backed up by solid facts with case studies it is completely useless.
As for here, we have several members who can vouch that whole raw eggs are present in our dog's meals, and feel a completely raw diet, and there isn't anyone who can point out one thing wrong with our dog health wise. Very Happy
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Location : Glenville, NY

PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:35 am

For the record, I could have found plenty more articles advocating raw egg feeding for dogs, but I tried to choose the ones that were the most credible--from vets, magazines, dog nutrition forums--so as to get more educated and researched information.

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PostSubject: Re: Raw Egg: To feed or not to feed?   Wed Feb 09, 2011 2:43 am

Wait, I just noticed, where does the word egg come up in the "Blindness in Siberian Husky / Correlation with raw eggs triggering genetic defect" links? I am unable to find where it says huskies have a genetic make up that cause them to be blinded by eggs.
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