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 Update on Blue lawsuit

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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Update on Blue lawsuit   Sun Jan 10, 2016 2:58 am

I promised i would give an update over the lawsuit Purina has with Blue, and here is an article that I just came across.....

http://iheartdogs.com/breaking-news-blue-buffalo-admits-to-lying-about-ingredients-here-is-why-you-should-care/

Hope this helps anyone with questions about feeding Blue.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:07 pm

Now that's an interesting article. As much as I really hate the idea of more government involvement in our daily lives, I have to agree with the article that I think it's going to become necessary.

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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:58 pm

MiyasMomma wrote:


Hope this helps anyone with questions about feeding Blue.


Oh, I don't know Renee, the way the article reads I'd be untrusting of any food out there...Blue pissed off Purina, could just as easily been TOTW or any other food out there. And there is really no way of knowing. Either one feeds raw and knows exactly what their dog is getting, or we trust packaging. Which, to me, is basically all dogfoodadvisor is doing.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 1:57 pm

Interesting information. But I'm a bit confused by the message of the article. The title and story is about blue buffalo straight up lying about what's in the kibble, and its number one advice is to ask about what's in the kibble, lol.

But at least it's not as bad as it could have been. I'll take a chicken foot over salmonella any day. Still it would be frustrating to buy a premium product and find out it actually isn't.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 2:24 pm

ummm...think I'll continue to "supplement/treat" Ami with food from our dinner even though I feed TOTW. And up the meat part...

But NOT the bacon fat he stole this morning (I was congealing it so I could dump it...he got about 2 TBLS before I saw him )
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 3:00 pm

Danielle, that's my point, I am upset that people paid premium prices, Blue's bottom line isn't about our pets it's about them making money off of us, by saying it's premium food, when in reality it is not any better than Purina. Ok, so it's still safe to feed, but, it's price doesn't match the quality.

FWIW.....Salmonella typically will not affect an adult, healthy dog. Recalls for salmonella is really for us humans who may touch the food product. Because of dogs digestive systems, food travels through your dog much faster, so it doesn't have the time to get the salmonella bug. that is why I personally am ok with feeding TOTW, the recalls were for salmonella, I have a much bigger issue with a company charging premium money for a lower quality food, lying about their product is worse than feeding my dog that more than likely wont get salmonella.

Jimmy, sure it could have been any company that made Purina mad. But the truth is, Blue constantly used Purina as a comparison, of Blue's "quality" ingredients, saying that theirs did not contain leftover chicken parts like Purina does. had Blue just said their ingredients were quality and never boosted that their food was better, Purina would not have checked in on their quality. Food like Fromm, have secondary groups come in and inspect the quality of their foods being used for processing into dog food. You're also right that feeding raw or home cooked is the only way to guarantee what your dog is truly eating. At the top of my head, the only main stream dog food that has not had any recalls or issues is Fromm, Acana, Orijen, and Earthborne. Acana and Orijen are made in Canada, and perhaps Canada has stricter dog food regulations than here in the US.

It is funny how the public's perception of dog food manufacturers are, as in many people are ok feeding Hills, yet Hills was in the whole malimine recall issue in 2007. Stella and Chewy's just had a recall, same as Himalayan dog chews, same with Nylabone, yet people are ok giving it to their dogs still. But for some reason, when anyone mentions a Diamond product (here's a list.....Diamond, TOTW, Kirklands, 4Health, Wellness, Canidae, as the more popular brands, many others were included), as being crap dog foods, it makes me question the motive of people in general, that recall was for Salmonella. I have heard people say salmonella is only a concern to humans not dogs, but then turn around and say I wont feed my dog TOTW because of all the recall issues they and Diamond has had. But in reality Diamond has had one recall and it was for Salmonella, and it was back in 2011. No recalls since. To be fair Hills and Stella and Chewy's have repeated recalls this year, July and December. Premade raw has also had various recalls, so feeding raw has to be done at home, not feeding premades.

I am not associated with Diamond products, but I feel Diamond has received bad press over a salmonella issue. I have a bigger concern over a company falsely advertising, and over charging a consumer. Blue is typically $10-20 more than TOTW, as an example. Yes Purina was mad. They had the bulk of dog food sales for many years, and Blue took over that spot. That was what the article was saying. maybe it was a good thing that Purina got mad, maybe they will start calling out other manufacturers. People overall love their pets as much as if they had or do have children. They want to give the very best to their pet, within their means of providing the best. To make the claims that Blue has, and to my recollection, they are the only dog food manufacturer that ever had ads like theirs, is detrimental to pet owners. Had Miya done well on Blue, we would have fed her that. I personally would have felt terrible finding this out. Knowing that all this time I had not been feeding my dog the very best food, like Blue claimed.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:14 pm

I don't want to start a pissing contest with Renee - shoot, she's my nearest Husky owner (let me rephrase that "She's the person who lives nearest me who owns a Husky", I don't know whether she's husky or not Smile)

Arcana and Orijen are both made by Champion PetFoods in Canada and have had recalls, to wit:
(the quote, BTW is taken from an Australian site.)

Quote :

The first recall to surface was in 2003. Champion Petfoods were manufacturing dry food products using rendered material from carcasses that were unfit for human consumption. One particular carcass was infected with pneumonia. Apparently, Champion Petfoods did not have any issues using material from sickly animals for the manufacturing of pet food, it was later found that this animal was also infected with BSE, ‘mad cow disease’.
http://www.organicconsumers.org/madcow/cats71703.cfm  

The second recall was in 2008 where large bone shards from salmon were found in Orijen dry pet food. Dangerously large, sharp and pointed bones were left protruding from the kibble, so sharp that pet owners cut their hands when handling the food. There were also reports of pets being injured. Champion Petfoods quality control was sadly lacking to have missed this potentially disastrous problem.  
http://www.goldenretrieverforum.com/showthread.php?t=34536&highlight=orijen+bones.  

The third recall in November 2008 appears to be the most damaging and devastating. On the 20th November, Champion Petfoods announced a voluntary recall of all Orijen brand cat and dog food sold in Australia. This was due to Australian veterinarians finding a link between cats suffering from an unknown neurological syndrome and the consumption of Orijen pet food. Champion Petfoods were alerted to the problem associated with their product approximately 2 months prior to the voluntary recall date.  As these problems were only reportedly seen in Australia it was concluded that the gamma irradiation treatment of Orijen pet food required under Australia’s quarantine laws left the food hazardous to cats.


To my knowledge Fromm remains the only dog food manufacturer who has not had at least one recall.  That isn't to say that they haven't had their problems as you can see in this thread from DogFoodAdvisor.

Oh, and don't knock Purina all that much, as of July 2015 they now own Merrick and Castor Pollux.
If you really want to be grossed out, think about the purchase by Smuckers (yeh, the jam/jelly people) of Big Heart Pet Brands its portfolio of brands includes Meow Mix®️, Milk-Bone®️, Kibbles ‘n Bits®️, 9Lives®️, Natural Balance®️, Pup-Peroni®️, Gravy Train®️, Nature’s Recipe®️, Canine Carry Outs®️, and Milo’s Kitchen®️.

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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 4:59 pm

Al no contest here, lol. Interesting on Champion pet foods, when I have done searches, everything comes up North America, so I am wondering if that was an Aussie issue, and that the north American processing is perhaps more regulated?

As far as the Fromm article, hmmm, the first person admitted feeding Evangers can dog food,  not a good track record with them. I also wonder if people actually look at what kind of treats they feed their pets, and how it may be a treat and not the kibble. With Fromm, I personally think it was because of shipment, humidity, or feeding something else. As far as the OP they could have made up the whole "was going to send off a sample to Fromm, had it ready to ship, and then Fromm contacted me thanking me for sending the sample" hmm.....sometimes people blame a well known product because they can't believe that it may be something else.

A while back Wysong had an issue with moldy food, it is a superior food, however, a specific "lot" molded, Wysong, actually felt it was in the shipping process as to why that specific lot got moldy, but still did a voluntary recall, again even tho it wasn't because of how they manufactured it.

Al I appreciate the info on the Acana/Orijen, not really sure how I take the info, because clearly it was an Aussie issue, and not directly a US issue. But it clearly falls into the Blue issue, deceptive practices of companies.

Again I will take a salmonella scare over deceptive practices any day. I have limited my feeding of kibble, I do choose TOTW high prairie, since it is the only flavor and only brand that Miya can tolerate. although, as I see it, Earthborne is now the only company that no one has mentioned issues with, and it is only $5 or so difference in price compared to TOTW, and haven't tried it with Miya. I have read tho, that Earthborne has a higher ash content than some other brands, so I may have to find out how bad is ash for dogs,I know it is very bad for cats. I have always fed about half the recommended amount of kibble, and then supplement with raw, and I guess I will continue to do so. I am with Amy on that, use kibble as a supplement, and feed what you know is safe, if it's safe for me, then it's safe for my dogs.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 5:49 pm

Renee, the first two were here in North America; the problem in Australia seems to have been a re-action by something in the dog food to irradiation on import - something beyond Champion's ken or control, I'd think.

As I've been looking though, I found that there was a fourth recall in 2011 based on the presence of Salmonella - I think everyone agrees that a dog probably won't contract salmonella from his food but a human who handles the food might.

I was a bit intrigued by this conversation and went back to the FDA web site for dog food recalls.  I'm inclined to suggest that anyone can make a mistake - you, me, the Gov and our pet food manufacturers - it's when the same company seems to 'make the list' time after time that I'd start being really concerned if *I* were feeding that food.  I was also looking for the history on the 2011 salmonella recall and was flustered to realize that the FDA web site only goes back one year.  Harrumph!

ETA: Re the Fromm thread, I wasn't trying to cast stones. There are several threads in various forums (fori?) about Fromm that say their quality is less than they advertise. I still think it's a good food and even if they had a recall my previous comment would apply.

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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:14 pm

How interesting Al, here's the thing, dogfoodadvisor goes back several years for recalls, no mention of Acana or Orijen. This is my aha moment....Dogfood.guru actually mentions all 3 briefly, but at least mentions. The guru is similar to advisor, maybe not as in depth, and maybe not as many reviewed. I also go to dogfoodanalysis.com to get info, but it is my least favorite out of the three, since it really is hard to read info on the site. I also don't believe they even give recall info. So now I am wondering if I personally should just stick to guru, and leave advisor behind, since, many people have mentioned many times, it was a human dentists that started the site. I will at least use advisor to stay up to date on recalls, since they do list immediately.

It's really a shame. Just curious Al and Amy, specifically, do you think the issues with dog food in general has more to do with the vast amount of options available? I'm asking you two, because, quite honestly y'all had dogs back when even I was a kid, lol, so y'all would know more as far as what was around in the 70's and 80's. I don't imagine they had recalls pre internet, or did they? Care to share in that department? How were things back pre internet?
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 6:27 pm

Oh by the way, forgot that truthaboutpetfood.com, also reviews products, tho I do believe they lean towards raw as the answer.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Mon Jan 11, 2016 9:19 pm

Dogs can suffer from Salmonellosis. It is true that it is most common in old, young, and those with compromised immune systems, but a salmonella outbreak in a major food supply is something to be taken seriously. I feed Loki TOTW, so I did not mean to pick on you, but it is a valid consideration when determining what product to buy. Not every dog is a healthy young adult, and bacterial outbreaks are a major concern for many.

The main reason for my post was that those who fed their dogs BB should not feel terrible for it. I'm sure it is frustrating to have overpaid, but there was no bacteria outbreak. Even the author of the article did not have much in the way of advice for avoiding the problem in the future. The shame is on the company, not its consumers. Just my attempt to comfort those who were damaged by the BB false advertising is all. No offense intended.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:01 am

Since Renee and I have carefully guided this completely off topic (and it's her thread, so she can do that!)  I wanted to comment that my posting in threads like these (and my thread on dog food recall) is, in no way, intended to suggest that anyone feeding anything below the "greatest" dog food is a bad owner.  We all know what we can afford; we all know how the dog food we're feeding ranks with the various analysis groups (if you don't then go look, I'll wait); we all know (or will learn) how our dogs react to different food.  

I've read, as I just wrote, that "My dog will eat anything and thrive!" all the way to "It doesn't matter whether I feed <chicken / beef / wild / raw>, my dog will have the worst case of <gas / diarrhea / bloating>".  We do our best by our pals, I don't think we'd be here if we weren't trying to.  Even the "raw purists" here seem to be comfortable that you don't have to feed raw to be a good doggy parent - which is pleasant, they aren't trying to shove raw down our dogs throats, thank you for that, BTW.  

I'm lucky in that mine will eat almost anything and want more - lucky in that I feed Purina Dog Chow knowing that there are a lot better foods out there but 1) they eat it, 2) I can afford it, 3) it's common/popular among the farmers with whom I grew up - it's a staple of dog foods.

I post the recall information, primarily for one reason:  To let people know of recalls so that if they're feeding the food that has been recalled they have some knowledge and a choice of what they're going to do.  As I noted earlier, I'm not going to be too concerned about a recall unless it's blatantly unhealthy or until the company seems to appear on the list more then a couple of times. (one company has been on the FDA's list about every nine months - I'd avoid them just because logic tells me that they're not playing square with us.

It pleases me more than I can say that we can have these types of discussions without people needing to get up on their soap box about what bad parents all the rest of us are because we don't spend half our income on the best dog food.

( and I think I've caught all the mistyping of 'god' for 'dog', if I haven't, I mean no offense, it's just the type of mistake I make that a spell checker won't catch ... )

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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Tue Jan 12, 2016 1:52 am

Danielle, I took no offense to your comments. If you are interested in reading extra small print I have an interesting study you can read, and it may surprise anyone who reads it. here is a year in review about dog food in general

http://dogfood.guru/dog-food-a-year-in-review/

And here is the sample testing of certain dog foods, note that all were of moderately to low premium dog and a few cat foods, except for one very notable one, I am not sure if this scientific review was done before of after the Beneful lawsuit or the Blue lawsuit....but both Blue and Beneful are listed as tested. I am hoping in the future they will test more of the higher quality kibble. Most consumers really do know what is quality food and what is not.

http://truthaboutpetfood.com/the-pet-food-test-results/

I am really liking how guru is going above and beyond advisor as far as information to the consumer is concerned. The truth about pet food site is a great resource, however, I do get put off by the main author to ask for some money, I ignore that and at least read the articles, because they do provide a lot of useful info.

Al.....You eta'd both of your responses and didn't notice. Actually Purina, hmmm, yea, I'm not going to feed their food, and Merrick has not changed their food any as of yet. My only beef with any pet food manufacturer is....including grains, using sub par meat proteins, not sourcing in the US.

Danielle, I get the comforting those who fed Blue, I feel bad as well. Quite honestly those Blue Reps at Petco are rather pushy in selling their products, i seriously would have fed Blue if Miya didn't get sick every time I fed her Blue. Btw, if you read the year in review that I linked, it wasn't just the chicken feet they included in Blue, and this is proof to me why Miya didn't do well on it, they also were found to use corn in their grain free.

I appreciate an adult debate, although this isn't a big debate, but, I appreciate having other people add to things, Al you must have dug deep to find out the info on Acana and Orijen, had you never mentioned many people would not have known, I had read the review of Acana a long time ago on guru, and at the time no mention of recalls, now they do add that. Advisor still does not include that in their recall lists.

Al, I reviewed and then saw your post. I understand where you are coming from. I'll be honest. I fed Miya Purina puppy chow, that's what I grew up knowing, always puppy chow then you move up if you can afford, to Iams or Eukanuba, Back in the day they were the "it" food. heck before that my parents fed Dad's. If Miya did not have a grain allergy, I would still be feeding a higher end Purina product. Unfortunately every dog food here at my local grocery store has all grain inclusive foods. The thing that bothered me for a very long time here on this forum, was to feel like I had to hide in shame for feeding TOTW, it is a food I can afford, that fits Miya's needs. There was a post, maybe over a year ago, with someone asking about switching from Fromm to TOTW, I gave my opinion on TOTW, and said Fromm was better, but hey, TOTW has been great for me. I was chastised for saying TOTW was a good food to feed. For the longest time I remained mute on saying I fed that. It is sad. We all have budgets, and we all know what our dogs can and can't feed, we all love our dogs.

I will say again, and agree Al, it is nice to be able to discuss a topic that can get heated, every dog is different, and every dog does well with one thing or another. I actually envy Al's dogs that they can eat whatever, it would fit my budget so much easier, since I would not have to drive to tim buck too(that isn't right, is it? lol) to get what I think works best for my dogs. Yes I could order online, but, in a strange way, dog food is already being shipped here and there, it already goes through heat and cold numerous times before making it to the stores shelves, by ordering online just adds yet another step of hot or cold, or both, in order for my dogs to eat it.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:03 pm

MiyasMomma wrote:

It's really a shame. Just curious Al and Amy, specifically, do you think the issues with dog food in general has more to do with the vast amount of options available?

I do not believe the issue is only dog food - it is the whole food supply chain and the need for vast quantities of food requiring factory farms, mechanized processing and then throw in the profit motive. Most food safety issues I believe are related to either large scale farming or to contamination in the processing plant. Probably the vast majority are ethical with only a few deliberate bad actors.

My son is a food scientist and we've discussed food safety on many occasions. For instance - my butcher this summer had a recall because listeria was found - no illness, just identified the bacteria in routine testing. I asked son about it and was told - once you get the bacteria in the equipment it is almost impossible to eradicate. We saw a similar problem with Peter Pan Peanut BUtter and salmonella - the bacteria get into the machinery, usually through no fault of the manufacturer, and then becomes extremely difficult to banish - often requiring not just whole plant disinfection (son says only a steam process will reliably get it out of the machinery) but frequently necessitating replacement of all machinery. Peter Pan chunky peanut butter was off the shelf for more than 2 years (I KNOW, it was my favorite PB at the time Sad ) The butcher ended up changing his business model to only frozen sales at his shop, selling wholesale and no more Andouille (such a shame - that was wonderful with his habanero mustard!) These are responsible, ethical manufacturers - they recognize the problem, stop selling and correct the problems. Unlike those brothers in the midwest with the melons that sickened and killed so many people.

The problem with the Blue recall, I believe, is related to greed - the profit motive. When my Mom was breeding, she started with Iams - at the time a top quality food, then switched to Eukanuba when it came out (much less poop to clean up lol! and great coats, too.) The small company develops the name as a quality, boutique product then sell the name, and one would hope, the formula, to corporate America, which has shareholders and a board who are more interested in profit margins. Whether the Blue fiasco was a top down corporate decision or some middle manager trying to cut costs - who knows.

Unfortunately, as consumers, we only have the company's reputation and whatever research we can dredge up. That is where federal regulation rears its ugly head. And don't get me started on who's in bed with the regulators...

So - Ami will continue on the TOTW because he is doing well. And I will add more muscle meat from our dinner...just to be sure...
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Tue Jan 12, 2016 2:20 pm

Thank you Amy for the insight. I appreciate that. Yes I remember with my last dog, when still living at home, my dad asking my mom why she had to feed Iams and then switching to Eukanuba. he says I am just like my mom, since he knows I feed a better quality food and feed raw, she fed cooked hamburger, but same idea, I think.

thank you also about the chain of processing. It brings to light how big corporations deal with getting product to the masses. Informative, again thank you for answering my questions.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Tue Jan 12, 2016 3:43 pm

This has been fascinating to read. I have never fed Blue, never had the want to feed Blue, but I have felt the want to be able to afford to feed Orijen before. This has all made me feel a little less want for that. I feel you, Renne, on the whole not really wanting to say what you feed for fear of stigma. I feed Diamond Naturals. I don't think many people here do anymore. I think most that did now feed TOTW. I grew up with all the dogs I knew or owned being fed Ol' Roy affraid Not sure it could get any worse than that. lol. But the dogs lived long lives with next to no health issues on the stuff. (It's worth noting all our dogs since the dawn of time were supplemented raw wild game) I have had good luck with Diamond Naturals. My two eat it and I have personally seen the difference that food has made in them. Now, if I had stepped up to Acana or something I can't say the difference might have been greater or happened faster, but I have seen change for the better with what I have and that works for me.

I will throw this out there. While there are a ton of brands out there available now, are there really that many manufacturers? Diamond and Purina own several brands. So, is a brand only as good as its owner? Or in the case of plants getting infected with things that can't simply be washed away should more research be done on what plant recalls are coming from and perhaps attempt to avoid things coming out of that plant if possible?

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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Tue Jan 12, 2016 4:10 pm

Jenn - the only reason I am not feeding Diamond is that when I transitioned form the Iams that the shelter was feeding, which was a large, almost nickel sized thing, which I was using for treats to carry in my pocket, was, whew, long sentence, the Diamond kibble was tiny, not much bigger than cat food.

I called Diamond directly to see if I could get a sample of their Extreme Athlete based on the protein content. They connected me to their vet consultant who, after asking about Ami's lifestyle (at the time he was outside from 7AM until midnight, with 5-6 miles per day broken in 3 walks and slept overnight in a crate in an unheated outbuilding). The vet told me that Extreme Athlete was designed for actively working sled dogs or similar - that the EA would make him "sick" - he didn't specify and I didn't ask. He recommended the chicken and rice formula and sent me samples. As I said, the kibble was really small so I switched to 4Health grain free, which I think gave him tartar so I switched to TOTW.
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PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Tue Jan 12, 2016 5:01 pm

i have noticed that with the kibble size and diamond naturals. The chicken and the lamb formulas are both small, like dime sized. I feed the beef formula and it is more nickle sized. Not sure why it is that way. My feed store says that they make it in different sizes because I have to request regular size and not small breed when I go in. I don't know why they would make beef in a normal larger size and not the other flavors though. It is strange. My two like the beef formula way more than the chicken but will eat both. Lamb they do not care for.

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Location : East Coast

PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:24 pm

Blue is by far the money sink of dog foods. I'm slowly getting my nutrition licence as I work at a Pet Valu and we have so many people coming in who are trying to either switch off of Blue or have horror stories about how sick it made their dogs.

The problem isn't the fact that they use crappy by product. If that was the case no one would buy Science Diet as it's almost all corn and we all know how well that goes down in a dogs tummy...it's the fact that people looked to them and trusted them with their dogs health. If my dog is allergic to chicken of any kind and they are slipping chicken by-product in there I don't care how small the amount is or WHY, they endangered my dog and made me pay out the butt to do so! At least junk dog food is generally honest about what it puts in there so if someone is going to buy it they know what they are getting. Putting anything in food that isn't expressly labeled is pretty illegal and you can't just call all types of chicken 'chicken'. Meal, by product and what not are vastly different from one another.

I try and push people away from Blue if they are having trouble now just knowing what's been being said. If they can prove they were on the up and up cool, but until then sadly my dogs health and the health of my clients are a bit too important.
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aljones
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Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

PostSubject: Re: Update on Blue lawsuit   Thu Mar 24, 2016 10:41 pm

It's really odd the way different companies treat their customers.  We all know that Purina is not the best food going (understatement) but they have a good portion of the market.  

Fromm, one of my favourite dogs foods just issued a recall for some of their canned dog food - and here's the big difference to me, they issued a recall on their own product because it didn't measure up to their standards.  It takes someone with a lot of "intestinal fortitude" to say "I messed up." and then do the right thing.  They aren't blaming anyone, they aren't saying that it isn't their fault - they're up admitting that they had a problem.  

This 'you're bad', 'No, you're bad' between Purina and Blue is - while quite serious - beginning to sound like a couple of kids.  If you make a mistake, own up to it; if you can't control the quality of your own product, you made a mistake.  Accept it, fix it and get on with life.

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