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 Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity

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mssuchy
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PostSubject: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Thu Jan 14, 2016 5:44 pm

Hey guys, sorry I was a bit inactive the past month. We finally recovered from cataract surgery and now in the past 2-3 weeks Klaus has randomly been vomiting/regurgitating his food. Also thinking he may have a sensitivity to ivermectin.

SO. Here we go.

He has been on Acana Pacifica since July, so I'm surprised he is having an issue now. We took him to the vet this morning, they are running a few tests, and checking his thyroid to make sure it's not something going on with him. In the meantime our vet recommended we do an elimination diet since I've noticed he was sensitive to chicken in the past.

Once I switched him from chicken to salmon in July his did amazing. Not diarrhea once, coat is marvelous, etc. So why now? Sad
Our vet recommended Natural Balance L.I.D which doesn't really make me happy because potato is the first ingredient, and it only got a 2.5 rating on dog food advisor, and right now his food is 5 stars. Does anyone have suggestions on better limited ingredient diets? He wants us to try something like Rabbit or Kangaroo since he most likely hasn't been exposed to it, so we can see if it is a protein issue.

As far as the Heartgard sensitivity, Klaus began doing this head twitching thing about 2 months ago. It seems to come and go and it seems to happen within a week following his heartgard. Anyone else heard of this? Or experienced this? We haven't determined this is the exact cause but I have high suspicion, so we're going to do one without ivermectin as the ingredient. It's called Interceptor.

Sorry for the long post but you guys are my go to. It's always something with this guy and I just want my happy healthy boy back.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:25 pm

Haley, you got a lot going on with your handsome boy. Hmmmm, the LID foods have been known to settle stomachs even though not of the highest quality. Dog food guru gives it a better rating, if that makes you feel any better. Anyways, here's the thing, unless you want to shell out money to get a allergy test, you may want to stick to NB and see how he does. Secondly, you may want Klaus to be tested for the MDR1 mutant gene, what have you been using for flea meds? If he has the mutation heartworm meds in combination with certain flea meds will produce severe reactions. There is a test, think it's $60 through the University of Washington (you can google all of this), and see if he has that mutation. I suspect Miya has it, never tested her, but when giving her comfortis and heartgard she had similar reactions, took her off of comfortis, started a topical fleas med, and stayed with the heartgard she is fine. Atm, I think I would stay with the NB LID, I can research and help you out with a better food idea. And check to see what flea med you are giving him. Let me know....
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Thu Jan 14, 2016 6:39 pm

Haley, just took a look at the NB LID Try the duck, yea, it has potatoes but, it is limited on the proteins, and your vet believes it is a protein allergy, I would try it. Something that I read a while ago was on the addition of Rosemary, the NB Kangaroo, Rabbit, and Wagyu have Rosemary, so far still looking, but the duck does not. Rosemary can trigger seizures, so if Klaus is indeed seizure prone, you must look at the ingredients of foods, the Acana Pacifica has Rosemary.
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mssuchy
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:15 pm

He didn't like the idea of duck or lamb because it is more common and found in a lot more things. So he wanted something a little more rare like rabbit or kangaroo to help us rule out sensitivity. So we're going to start with the rabbit/potato. Maybe once we narrow down what he can and can't have I can find a better quality food. There is a food called Zignature that has limited ingredient diets, but all of them either have turkey fat or something else hidden in there. I'm still skeptical about the diet being the problem. Especially because his stools are fine. I'm personally worried he has a problem with his esophagus or something underlying just because we've been on this food for months with no problems.

I'm not sure if his "twitching" is seizure related or not. He hasn't had an actual seizure. It also only seems to be when he is resting, or getting ready to fall asleep. When he is up and moving, or sleeping it doesn't happen. Right now since it's been super cold and snowy I haven't had flea preventative on him, just heartworm. For spring, summer and fall we use Frontline. He never seemed to have an issue then. And heartworm we've been using Heartgard.
I did see that test online, but I thought from what I read on their website the test only applied to Aussies or Collies? I'm the one who feels he has a sensitivity to it, and brought it up to my vet because here is the thing...

The night we took him to the ER regarding his cataracts the gave him a shot of Butorphanol. That is also the 1st night that the twitching started, and when it was at it's worst. Then while I was doing some research on Ivermectin sensitivity I found a couple websites list that dogs sensitive to Heartgard/ivermectin shouldn't have Butorphanol. So with this info I have a strong feeling it has to be that. Because he never did the twitching thing until that night. If it isn't that, I'm really going to be lost and we'll probably have to see a neurologist.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Thu Jan 14, 2016 7:41 pm

Some breeds like the Aussie's and collie's are more prone to it. However, any dog can have the issue. GSD's are actually in the top 5, I emailed the university to confirm the issue with the gsd's since they are of no relation to collies. They e-mailed me back pretty quickly, which I felt was great. They confirmed some gsd's are prone, but not all. It also stated that a mix breed can be prone to it as well. Here's the thing Haley, you said Klaus did not come from the best of breeders, unless you have a long line of pedigree to prove he is 100% husky, there could be a possibility that 6 generations ago a collie got mixed in there, just as an example. Although from what I read the issue is heartworm med in conjunction with something else that typically causes the problem. Miya did the same twitching thing with the combo comfortis and heartgard. I read the warning labels with the new heart worm med you are giving, and they have the same warnings as the ivermectin. Is you vet at all involved with the University systems? I know Michigan has a great vet school, it may be beneficial and cheaper to contact the school to see what kind of test you would need to do, seizures don't always have to be full on seizures, and yes a neurologist would have to be seen. I would contact the local university or contact University of Washington to see if you can test him, again it was $60, far cheaper than a neurologist. And more importantly you would know for sure, and then work with your vet if he does indeed have the mutation. I would assume that if he had it, avoiding certain meds would lower the risk of seizure, since it would be chemically induced kind vs neurological.

As far as the food. Suggest to your vet the Rosemary issue, see if there is a limited ingredient food that you could give him that would not have Rosemary included. I know that NB has a large selection, and some do and some don't include it. They also had a duck forula that was legumes and less potato, that may be an option as well.

I wish you luck, I am so sorry you are and have been bombarded with so many issues with your boy. again, keep us posted.
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mssuchy
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Thu Jan 14, 2016 8:02 pm

Yes you're right Klaus came from a BYB, he had AKC papers but that is it so I suppose it could be possible, or he just has the gene himself. Did you end up getting Miya tested or were you just able to figure it out. And what heartworm preventative are you using?

It's almost that time of the month for me to switch him and give his next dose, so I'm tempted to see if a new heartworm preventive stops it. If not I probably will just go ahead and do the test, and see a neurologist. I hate seeing him go through it and not having answers.

When he was really little we had him on Sentinel for a few months and he seemed to do fine. In the reactions I did see convulsions but not seizures. Maybe I can recommend sentinel.

http://www.sentinelpet.com/about

The only thing is sentinel protects everything but heartworm. So I wonder if him getting this and Frontline would be too much flea protection?

As far as the rosemary goes I will bring that up to my vet when he calls with test results. My fiancé already bought a small bag of the potato/rabbit while I've been at work and started him on it. But it's a small bag so we can switch again if need be. Thank you for your input I truly do appreciate it and I feel a little better knowing we're not the only ones going through this heartworm issue. Hopefully that is what it is.
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Thu Jan 14, 2016 11:21 pm

I would look at his pedigree and see if he has anything listed with "Copperhead". He's an aussie cross if thats the case. Almost all herding breeds can carry the MDR1 gene. Check out some of the drug sensitive dog groups.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Fri Jan 15, 2016 1:32 am

Haley, also, if he has any gsd in him, which is really what I meant to give as an example, because he doesn't have any collie or aussie features, his distinguished muzzle on him could resemble a gsd, so if he is not 100% pure, my guess would be a smidge of gsd, either way, it would be something you would want to know. For me my bigger concern was Sofie, and since Miya has some gsd features her as well, that would mean $120 for me to run a test on both of them. I am sticking with the heartguard(to be honest I believe every heart worm med has a warning that says may cause seizures), convulsions and seizures, I know they are closely related, sorry, yes I would agree it would be convulsions, which with epilepsy be included with a seizure. Here is U of W's website for more info..
http://vcpl.vetmed.wsu.edu/vcpl-home

That site will list all drugs that may cause issues. The key thing that they mention is with Ivermectin, and other similar drugs in combo with other drugs with dogs with mdr1 mutation may experience convulsions. Some products call it tremors. The U of W says that all heartworm meds by themselves are safe, that the probability rises when including other drugs, so with Miya it was the inclusion of the comfortis for fleas. I stopped the comfortis and continued with the heartgaurd, and no problems. I did glance at the site and I do believe it did mention the drug that he first had issue with. So like Miya, I would be aware of his potential issue and always mention to your vet if they want to give hm a certain med to see if it is safe, I guess with me I just assume both of my girls have it, and work with what I know. Is Klaus still taking other meds? It may be reasonable to know what drugs a dog can and can't take, and what interactions when taking heart worm meds with something else. I would also inform your vet of your suspicions and if he/she is unaware give them the web site too.

For Miya and Sofie I do things the way I think is best, I give heartguard every 45 days rather than 30 days, I confirmed with a pharmacist that that is ok and the efficacy of the drug is indeed fine. I give the lowest dose possible, which is hard since it says 50-100 pounds, and Miya is 60, I felt going the 45 days stretches the dose to fit her size. There may be natural remedies, unsure atm what they are, that wards of mosquitoes and then have Klaus tested for heartworm, this may be an option you need to speak to your vet about. For fleas and ticks I use Fiprogard, contoversy with that as well, but overall, I felt it was the safest flea preventive I could give. I also do it every 45 days most of the year, and in winter as long as it's cold enough I skip 3 months, Dec, Jan, Feb. I am diligent in the 45 days, going over may pose a risk of not being protected.

Haley, those are just options, I studied and read so much, because I was so worried about Miya. Every dog is different, so you may have to trial and error, and if you have a competent vet work with him/her, I do not, so I have been left on my own with this. BTW, if I read it right sentinel is for heartworms, and fleas, so it would be feasible to me, that you could just give him sentinel and nothing else, as long as he did well on it, so you could stop the frontline. Another option, although did not look to see if any of the drugs are on the 'bad" list was revolution.

It also took me awhile, and I am throwing this out for you to ask you vet.....you said Klaus was vomiting no diarrhea. If I read that right, ask the vet about acid reflux. FYI, on the list of potential issues with MDR1 is "Loperamide (ImodiumTM; antidiarrheal agent)- At doses used to treat diarrhea, this drug will cause neurological toxicity in dogs with the MDR1 mutation. This drug should be avoided in all dogs with the MDR1 mutation." So if he has ever taken that alone or with Heartgaurd, obviously he may have had convulsions. stay away from it......The acid reflux issue sounds more plausible than an allergy. Funny as it sounds my cat had acid reflux, she threw up almost daily until my old vet figured out the issue. I do not know if any drugs to help with acid reflux will interact, so see if he has acid reflux then contact U of W, or look at the list on the site I linked you to.

Whew......I know that is a lot of stuff to digest. I imagine the cataract surgery ate up funds, so this is my way of trying to help at the lowest cost to you as possible, and still keep Klaus happy and healthy. If you need anything feel free to pm me, and I can see what I can do to help. Take care Smile and keep us posted, and let me know if any of this helped.
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mssuchy
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Fri Jan 15, 2016 11:33 am

Hmm I don't see anything "Copperhead" listed, if he does have mix in him it has been carried down. Neither of his parents looked like mixes at all really. It would be hard to tell if he is unless I had a DNA test done, which I may do out of curiosity in the future when we catch up on vet bills.

I did look over that list of drugs to avoid, right now he is not on anything listed. Just some drops still for his eyes, and our vet just put him on an antibiotic and over the counter Prozac (famotidine) to see if those things help his stomach. So we should be good. He definitely twitched more than ever though that night the ER gave him butrophanol though, so I'll be avoiding that. I'm going to ask my vet about waiting 45 days as well, that sounds like a good idea. Gives him more time to flush it out of his system before getting the next dose. I also emailed WSU to see if they felt like what he was doing was something they have heard of with the reaction between the two, and they actually told me they thought it sounded more neurological than drug related :/ so I guess we will have to see. I just find it too coincidental to accept it couldn't be drug related in some way.

If I just give him Sentinel alone though I do worry about tick prevention. He had one on him last year (not attached thank god). So I know we have them around.

If things don't calm down after waiting 45 days and changing to a different heartworm medicine I will want Klaus to be seen by a neurologist, just to be sure. I just hope we can get some answers! And yes, all of the information has been very helpful, thank you Smile
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mssuchy
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:25 pm

Holy cow I can't believe it's been since Jan since I've been on here Shocked
Been so busy with work & school! Also in two weddings + planning my own. Anyhow hey guys !
I figured I'd just post here to update and get back into things. I was missing you all.

Regarding the original topic here, through process of elimination I was able to determine that Klaus had some kind of sensitivity to Ivermectin in the Heartgard. We switched to Sentinel and have not noticed any of the head bobbing/tremoring since. Happy there.

As far as a limited ingredient diet, we still haven't made a discovery on his sensitivity. The limited ingredient food wasn't helping so our vet put us on Purnia's veterinary diet. I KNOW Mad However he was throwing up daily, and at one point we had a flare up where he didn't want to drink for two days and had to go in for fluids twice. So we needed to get him on something to calm him down. It seems to be working, however he still throws it up if we don't blend it, and split each meal into two. Which is weird...

He had an ultrasound, all of his insides look good, and they even tested him for addisions at one point. All clear. So now we're considering once he's been on this veterinary diet for a while, and his system is clear, trying a new food. No treats. Just the new food, to see if he can handle anything. I really want him off this veterinary diet, so suggestions on a kibble for a sensitive tummy? No chicken. Chicken fat is added in a lot of diets that are fish... sneaky. He used to be a Acana Pacifica but that is when it all started.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:30 am

Haley....sorry this dropped off the main page before I could reply.....There is a couple of things since your last post I wanted to mention to you....firstly since he does have issues with the heart worm meds, it is very possible that Klaus has a gsd background some where. I would talk to your vet about EPI, it is found in all dogs but very common in the gsd, if he is losing weight I definitely ask for im to be tested. If you google EPI in dogs you will get a lot of info.....Secondly, Sofie is not good with chicken either, most limited ingredient foods are not very limited. I found that The Taste of the Wild Pine forest is made with lamb and venison and ocean fish as the proteins, and they use lentils instead of potatoes or grains. The Sierra mountain uses lamb only and uses sweet potatoes and potatoes. So 0 chicken. I rotate between the two, and strangely enough, since Sofie is a pup still he morning meal is the pine and evening is the sierra So maybe that can be useful? Please keep us posted, miss seeing you and Klaus.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Tue Apr 05, 2016 3:35 am

Btw....chicken fat is not listed in the Acana Pacifica, so how did you find out that it does? Just curious.
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mssuchy
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PostSubject: Re: Limited Ingredient Diet & Heartgard Sensitivity   Wed Apr 13, 2016 3:15 pm

I don't think that he would have EPI. He isn't losing weight or anything, just seems to have a problem swallowing it or any of the other symptoms I googled with it. We started blending his food in the blender and adding water because that seemed to make it easier on him. He hadn't thrown up in 4 weeks while on the prescription diet, so we decided to try and stop blending it because we figured he was getting back to normal. Well, right away once he tried eating whole kibble he regurgitated it. So it seems that he has issues with kibble size... so we may need to speak with a specialist further. He may have a stricture in the esophagus. I'm not so convinced it is a diet issue with those findings. I do think he is sensitive to things, but I'm not convinced he has an intolerance now.

We're going to try to get him off prescription while still blending the kibble up. That way we know if it is diet or not. I'm hoping it works. These 4 weeks is the longest he has felt himself in a long time, and I don't want to ruin that! I think we decided on Earthborn Meadow Feast. It is a grain free lamb diet.

http://www.chewy.com/earthborn-holistic-meadow-feast/dp/36416

Also, I don't think I worded that correctly. Acana Pacific doesn't have chicken fat, I just noticed that a lot of "Limited Ingredient" diets did.

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