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 Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)

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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:54 pm

The insect growth regulators (IGR) (I prefer pyriproxyfen over s-methoprene, maybe just superstition but I"ve read the s-methoprene degrades in sunlight) interrupt the flea development process by preventing either the eggs or larvae from developing into adult fleas.(I believe its the larvae - too tired and sore to look it up)

Capstar is labeled for daily use if need be.  When I had a flea out break, I used the capstar to kill the adults, followed by Vetguard Plus (this has permethrin and pyrproxyphen.)  The pyriproxyphen is good for up to 4 months.  Then, 3 weeks later, I used Sentry Fiproguard.  Fipronil is good for up to 3 months on adult fleas.  So hear, you have topical killing adult fleas for 3 months and halting development of flea larvae for 4 months.  I did not use any spray or bath.  Flea control directions frequently call for using a topical at the same time as the capstar.

But...I did vacuum, vacuum, vacuum...crevices, corners, under carpet edges, furniture.  All dog and human bedding got high temp wash and dryer.  Before bed, I sprinkled Borax on all carpets and worked it in with stiff brush (carpet cleaner kits have a good long-handled brush for this and then vacuumed the next day.

If I did not have bees, I would use an outdoor flea kill product on the grounds where doggy spends his time (I would choose one with either a pyrethroid or IGR or both)

What I would NOT do, and labels tell you this, is use more than one pyrethroid (usually permethrin for dogs) - this is a problem when you use a topical, a spray and a bath product.


Last edited by amymeme on Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 7:56 pm

For bathing, any soap/shampoo should kill fleas, they suffocate I guess. I had a bowl of water with a small amount of dawn dish soap mixed in and if I found fleas on mine that I could pick off, I'd drop them in that bowl, they furiously swim for a second or two...then sink. My only advice for any kind of dish soaps, like Dawn, is to use VERY little.

As for Capstar, I had to give Mishka a dose twice in a 2 week period. The instructions said it was ok and she had no ill effects, that I could see anyways. But the fleas had gotten so bad that she couldn't even sleep at night! And I was already doing everything I could to eradicate them. The vet did tell me when I got the Nexgard for my two, that every single person coming in to get it, were complaining the topicals just weren't effective anymore. I've heard some areas, the fleas have become super fleas, meaning they've gotten immune to the topicals I guess.

I think you mentioned moving soon to a new place. If you can, when you move...put your husky on a chewable (investigate them all first and decide which one suits your situation best) that way you are going into your new place with basically a clean slate. Once you get thru this season (what's pretty cool about Nexgard is it can be bought in 3 month increments (a chewable a month for 3 months) which should bring you pretty much thru the summer season. Next year, as flea season starts, since you started with a clean slate, you probably could go the "natural" route in prevention...from what I've heard and read, "natural" does very very little in a infestation stage. I HATED having to do not only topicals, but the chewable as well...I'm hoping next season I can start prevention the natural way and still be flea free. For now, I have to be happy this Nexgard has worked. Btw, my two were given their second dose yesterday, no vomiting or anything else that I'd consider a side effect. Most cases of vomiting, reported, have been on first dosage and none afterwards so I'd say it's pretty accurate.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:47 pm

We'll be moving into the new place tomorrow.. I gave him a Capstar today, just now giving him a bath with the permethrin and oatmeal shampoo and letting it sit for a few minutes. Once he dries we will vacuum him and the carpets and then put on the Fipronil and (S)-methoprene topical.
Again the topical is about 10? Days early but he is right at the weight of the next dose up which is double the current dosage, so I am not too worried about it being too much, considering he won't be getting anymore for atleast a month.

We will take him to the vet soon and ask about getting him on Nexgard, it seems to have the least side effects from what I've seen so far.

Everyone I've heard from around us says their fleas are horrible and they can't get rid of them either. We will definitely be ready next summer though.
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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:55 pm

If you have a Petco near you, they have vets that come in on Saturdays during certain hours who give your dog a short exam, weigh, for things like Nexgard and I think vaccinations as well, where I don't think it costs anything...just the amount for the flea preventative or vaccinations.

Just before the Nexgard, I was giving mine the topicals in their third week (a week before the month would be up) and according to Amy, it fit right in to where my topicals were becoming least effective. My only thing was even with the topicals and everything else, the fleas never really seemed to die down!

My neighbors were saying the same thing about the fleas.

With bathing tho...is a topical as effective right after a bath? I seem to remember it's not. Something about needing the oils in the skin to be replenished or something.
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Loki14
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 8:58 pm

I read the same thing about the topicals, but the manufacturer websites for most says it's okay to bathe them before as long as they're completely dry first.

I'm not sure though, I may wait a day or so before giving the topical.
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aljones
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:00 pm

Okay, since I stuck my big mouth into this what I'd do would look something like this:

Give the pup a good bath.  See instructions below.
In a day or two - when you next see adult fleas - give the CapStar.  That should take care of 90% of the existing adult fleas.
While, in theory, it shouldn't be a problem, I'd wait a few days - again, when you see adult fleas - before applying the topical
At this point, you shouldn't see any more of the existing adult fleas, you may see some hatching from the larva but those should be kept in check with the topical.
Expect that you will see at least the occasional flea over the course of the next month or so.

I am *always* concerned when someone wants to use more than one poison product on their pets at the same time - if your pet has a bad reaction (hives / seizure / etc) how do you know what to cull from your mix?

*My* method of giving a dog a bath for fleas:

  • Make sure you have a good sedative available, I like a decent beer but I'm told marggs work as well (this obviously for you, not the dog)
  • Unless your dog likes baths, tie him firmly - on a short leash - to something he can't run away from.  I normally leash mine and then step on the leash - a loop will help if they're especially 'unhappy'.
  • Wet the dog thoroughly, start at his neck and work down to his tail, then carefully wet his head.
  • Shampoo the dog well, a lavish amount of shampoo is called for, starting as high on his neck / head as he's comfortable with and work to the tail.  Scrub well!  Most dogs actually enjoy this if you're doing it right.
  • As heavy as you can, shampoo his head / ears / neck / muzzle - most dogs do *not* enjoy this.
  • If you haven't already, now's the time to reach out for that sedative you brought out earlier.  You need to relax and the poisons in the shampoo need time to work - five minutes at a minimum but 10-15 is better if the pup will stand still for that long.  The 'scrub well' in a previous step is to get as much of the medicine laden shampoo into his fur as you can.
  • Rinse well; when you stop seeing the shampoo continue rinsing for several minutes.  Any residual shampoo can cause his skin to dry.

One time should kill any existing fleas.  I wouldn't be too eager to give him the CapStar or the topical.  If you've done the shampoo right you should have a couple of days (at least) before you see any more adult fleas.
Dogs naturally shake when they're wet, after you've started to shampoo him you don't want him to shake all your hard work off - with most dogs, if you grab the hair back of their neck (on their shoulders) they'll stop trying to shake.

ETA: If the fleas are really bad in your 'neck of the woods' you need to have a strong topical so that he isn't carrying any in with him. No recommendations from me on that though as I haven't had to follow up on what's good / better.
If they're particularly nefarious, DE in your carpet may help.

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Loki14
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 9:21 pm

Thank you, that's about how we bathe him each time. We use a lot and scrub it in, then make sure to let it sit for as long as both us and the dog will allow.

The fleas here are really bad, everyone's having problems, which is why we're trying to hit them from every angle possible right before the move, to try and keep the number of fleas and eggs we bring with us as low as possible.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:15 pm

Al - I have no problem with permethrin and fipronil being given close together, even simultaneously. There is a product that combines them both. I also asked my vet about using them together and she gave me the ok.

Now, here's the deal with permethrin - it is great at preventing ticks. Fleas have developed some resistance to it - for the topicals, permethrin effectiveness drops precipitously around 3 weeks. But fipronil has a really good effectiveness profile (Fiproguard label says kills adult fleas for 3 months.) but tick prevention is "meh".

Also - I would like to see the dog get an IGR (prefer pyriproxifen) immediately so that any adult fleas that survive, cannot produce viable 2nd generation.

Jimmy - the label on my topicals suggest waiting a few days after bath before applying. Skin oils need to build up again as sebum is the vehicle for distributing the topical. And, again, a bath after the topical at any time will, temporarily, decrease protection. Swimming or water alone should not - its the deqreasers in shampoos that banish the sebum for a bit.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 10:37 pm

Amy, I'll not argue since the pyrethrin family of insecticides has been proven safe in normal formulas.  My major qualm comes in mixing insecticides and one of them produces a unacceptable reaction.  When they're safely(?) given simultaneously there's no way to tell which is the culprit.

The other part to this disclaimer is that all of the insecticides she's considering using all deal with adult fleas.  If one of them will kill 90%+ of all adult fleas, what's to be gained by using the other two at, essentially, the same time?  The CapStar, followed when the fleas reappear with a good flea bath should help keep the fleas under control.  As she says, her part of OK is having a crisis of fleas (paraphrased) ... so long as others have pets with fleas, nothing is going to eliminate every flea the dog comes in contact with.

Even though an IGR was mentioned earlier the OP's specific questions was (again paraphrased) "given the products I have now what is the best approach?"  IGR's and IDI's would ideally be used in a full regimen of flea control but if they can be controlled without they might be an unnecessary expense.

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Loki14
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Tue Jul 26, 2016 11:07 pm

The Pet Armor plus does have an IGR, methoprene, but it seems to not be very effective. I have never heard of an IDI, I will look into it. I'm hoping though one of these oral products I try in the next month will do the trick mostly, if the current run does not.

I'm not opposed to buying additional products, but ideally would like to use as little as possible if not only for convenience.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:23 am

I'm kinda lost with "IGR" and "IDI", I'm guessing IDI is the one that acts like birth control (makes them unable to reproduce) ? If that's the case, PROGRAM is actually recommended to be used along with Capstar and I do know for fact PROGRAM is an awesome product cuz we used it on my Malamute back in the day...and since he lived to a good age of 16, I can say it didn't affect his health st all. I believe it's hard to find now though cuz of the popularity of topicals (PROGRAM is in pill form, atleast it was when we used it) but since Capstar mentions using it along with PROGRAM, I'm sure it's available somewhere online.

@Amy, that's what I thought! Only you worded it better and more accurately, lol. Thank you.
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Loki14
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:30 am

Ill look for Program as well.

I was trying to find a product with only pyriproxifen, but wasn't lucky. I wanted to add it in addition to the Petarmor possibly.

Too bad there isn't an all in one adult flea, IGR, IDI, tick, heart worm, that is perfectly safe
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Loki14
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:33 am

1 800 pet meds says Novartis has discontinued Program..
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:58 am

Aw, that sucks! It was good! It only sterilized the fleas but there wasn't a flea in the house ever again. My Malamute was allergic to fleas to the point of chewing his fur right off his skin and it was a life saver for him.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 1:33 am

Loki14...you asked about a full coverage item...sentinel spectrum will cover fleas, heartworm, and all major worms, hook, tape, round and whip. It will not take care of ticks, but the sentinel (the spectrum is better than the original) covers more than any product out there. If you live in a tick heavy environment then I would look for something to cover ticks, otherwise this is the only product out there that gives full coverage of all nasty things, lol. I have read that there is less reactions with this as well, and the original has been out for a long time. I like the spectrum because of the added tape and whip worm coverage that no other product has.

As far as the fipronil for me anyways, it has been effective against fleas and ticks, not one of those have I seen since using it, and I use the basic Fiprogard with fipronil only. I used to have a guy spray for bugs inside and outside, and he swore that fipronil only will kill fleas and ticks. I have to agree, he was ill this year, and he didn't come over, I found 2 ticks on me, none on the dogs, which says the Fiprogard works on the girls, but because no bug guy for my lawn, I was not protected. Now of course I don't have a flea problem, so the fipronil only is going to work for me, adding the IGR would be needed if you have an existing problem, to prevent adults from reproducing. I'm with Al tho, I want to use the least amount of insecticides as possible, Miya was infested as a puppy, and having no rugs in house helps tremendously, along with the bath with dawn dishsoap, the orvitol I mentioned previously, and at the time comfortis, Miya had a reaction to comfortis, so I will never use comfortis nor trifexis, imo, the spinosad is not a safe product and even less safe when including a heartworm preventive.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:16 am

I wonder....why no one is using the Fiproguard Max or Plus???? The plus has IGR in it, and the max has something else, cyphenothrin, not sure what that does, but....not sure why not use one product vs 2 or 3 products? Just wondering, again I don't have a flea issue, but if I did I probably would use the plus or max.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:45 am

@Loki14 wrote:
The Pet Armor plus does have an IGR, methoprene, but it seems to not be very effective. I have never heard of an IDI, I will look into it. I'm hoping though one of these oral products I try in the next month will do the trick mostly, if the current run does  not.

I'm not opposed to buying additional products, but ideally would like to use as little as possible if not only for convenience.

That's my impression which is why I chose the vetguard plus since it is permethrin and pyriproxifen. Ideally I would find a product that had fipronil for fleas, permethrin for ticks and pyriproxyfen for IGR. But, its not out there - so, since the permethrin is good for 6 weeks against ticks, the fipronil is good for 3 months against adult fleas and pyriproxifen is good for 4 months against the larvae, I've worked out a rotation that, knock on wood, has been good for me. They are Sentry Fiproguard, Vetguard Plus and Freedom 45 (plain permethrin), all knock-off generic brands and really cheap. It also allows me to use the least chemical possible - but, let me tell you, took me about half a day to figure out the intervals of each so that fleas AND ticks were always covered.

Then for heartworm, I use a generic ivermectin tablet I get from pets megastore in australia and for worms, I use another generic tablet every 3 months, also from pets megastore.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 10:56 am

Oh - and Walmart/Sams Club stopped carrying the Vetguard plus so I had to buy it online - Amazon, I think.  The Freedom 45 (if you have a tick problem not controlled with Fipronil) is available at Tractor Supply as is the Sentry Fiproguard.  I buy the products to cover both Ami and Archer and in quantities out to the expiration date - at least 1 year and maybe 2 so that I get free shipping and once I've made the purchases, I'm good for at least a year.  I write the dates due for dosing on my calendar so after the initial hassle for figure out what, where to buy and when, it all becomes automatic.

I don't use the Fiproguard Plus or Max because of the s-methoprene - I prefer the pyriproxifen.  Which I cannot find a stand alone product.  I don't do flea baths because Ami is huge and strong, I only have a shower to bath him in (that dog is NOT going to dig in my new, beautiful, Kohler acrylic deep tub!!!!  I saw what he does with running water in a tub in a Red Roof Inn in Malone NY...not gonna' happen here!) and he hates baths.

And....I think there may be a dead, decaying mouse somewhere behind the computer desk, wires, subwoofer, file cabinet mess.... pale
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 12:38 pm

Fipronil:  Has been classed a "possible" carcinogenic by the EPA. According to the EPA (I've been reading around so that may not be the correct source) it has been linked to thyroid cancer in dogs. That was why Novartis pulled Program from their 'pharmacy'.

When I went to see why Novartis had pulled Program it led down a rabbit hole ... I think we all realize that there are very few (any?) completely safe insecticides.  It quickly becomes a search for those products that have the least affect on our pups.

The CalEPA performed a set of tests with Fipronil that are summarized in this article.  In its defense, it wasn't until the LOEL (Lowest Observable Effective Level) proportions reached 10mg/kg/day (5 times normal) that there were observable problems.

As I've noted and Renee echoed, I have a tendency to dislike any unnecessary medicine (for both me and the pups) and those that raise red flags might get used - after due consideration.  *My* preference is the pyrethrin family, as I think I've commented earlier.  According to the NIH side effects are few and mostly related to humans with asthmatic conditions /allergies.  It wasn't till the proportions reached ridiculous proportions that any problems were encountered with dogs.

I'm not suggesting that everyone discontinue use of any product.  Obviously, if it works for you and you see no side effects then who am I to suggest that you shouldn't use it?

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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:29 pm

I'll have to look at the data. BUt, glad I only use 1 dose of fipronil every 3 months (which, in our climates works out to June and Sept as we don't have a flea problem otherwise.
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 2:54 pm

I am not arguing, but Novartis Program were pills and no fipronil in it. It contains lufenuron, and is still available thru online places. Not positive but it looks like Novartis replaced the program pill with sentinel which also includes heartworm preventive, so maybe they decided to stick with a all in one pill vs just a flea pill?
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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:00 pm

Yes, you are too arguing  Smile  and I went back to read the article from which I'd sorta garnered that information and after re-reading more carefully they seem to do their best to confuse people.  The start the article off talking about Fipronil, then go on to new product announcements. In passing they mention the Program Pill and I give up ....

I was probably scanning too quickly for the right names / ingredients to sink in. Mea Culpa.

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PostSubject: Re: Still Fleas After Treated (Update, still need help)   Wed Jul 27, 2016 7:46 pm

Back in the day when I had my Malamute, PROGRAM was already getting harder to find, our vet stopped carrying it. When my mom asked why, we were to,d it was because of the popularity of topicals...it was much easier to use a topical, and kill the fleas, then it was to give a dog a pill (some of us know how that goes, hahaha) and just have the fleas sterilized. So I'm thinking it's not normally in stock in very many places because it's simply not bought so much anymore. Last year I used Capstar on my two and the literature inside talked extensively about using PROGRAM and Capstar together in defeating the fleas life cycle. So naturally I assumed it's still being sold somewhere. As I mentioned before, we used it on my Malamute, he lived to be 16 years old and died of old age (I had to put him down though Sad ) he had no health problems when he died,(no cancers, organ failures or that kind of thing) so as far as *I* am concerned, PROGRAM is/was  (?)a great product.
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