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 Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?

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MartianHusky
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PostSubject: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Tue Jan 10, 2017 5:25 am

I have not researched this topic in depth, but remember reading somewhere that there is controversy over whether or not puppy food is even beneficial to pups and that feeding an adult diet to pups is just fine.

Additionally, the breeder mentioned that puppy food should never be given to Siberian pups and that puppy diets are simply a marketing ploy and may actually be detrimental to Sibe pups.

I do remember reading somewhere on the forum that the key difference between puppy and adults diets has to do with the calcium ratio and that puppy formulas have less calcium than adults.

I am wondering if there have been any independent studies (not funded by dog food companies) to substantiate whether puppy diets are beneficial or possibly detrimental.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Tue Jan 10, 2017 12:47 pm

Puppy foods, as you have state, have a different balance of minerals. I don't believe it is just marketing. Can you feed adult food to a puppy. Of course you can. But, I believe, for optimum nutrition, a puppy specific food is probably better for the first year.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Tue Jan 10, 2017 3:17 pm

Well, I would have to do some digging in order to show scientific proof, but yes for the most part it is a marketing ploy for you to buy puppy food. An all life stage food is equally nutritious and many breeders do not feed puppy food and feed all life stage. there is a caveat which doesn't really apply to huskies and that is the large breed puppy food. AAFCO had recently changed and lowered the recommended calcium to phospherous ratios for large breed puppies which is 1.2:1 to a max suggestion of 1.5:1. large breed puppy food is designed for those ratios. Medium sized breeds like the husky isn't a risk, and feeding an all life stage food that has the required DHA (AKA salmon oil) in the food is perfectly fine. Even large breed puppies typically get switched to an all life stage food at around 6 months old. The old standard of 1 year to 2 years on a puppy food is no longer the "thing". Knowing that the packages of puppy food are smaller and more expensive and most people switch at 6 months or less to the all life stage, in my book, means it is a marketing scheme by manufacturers to "fool" buyers to buy puppy food. If you want scientific proof, sigh, I probably could locate. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:18 pm

Could you please locate, Renee? That'd be great.

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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Tue Jan 10, 2017 10:44 pm

http://m.petmd.com/dog/puppycenter/nutrition/evr_dg_the_importance_of_proper_nutrition_for_puppies
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MartianHusky
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:13 am

@amymeme wrote:
http://m.petmd.com/dog/puppycenter/nutrition/evr_dg_the_importance_of_proper_nutrition_for_puppies

Thanks for the link. I think I will gradually switch him to a puppy food at least until he is 6 months of age unless I find evidence that it may, in fact, be harmful. Maybe the higher fat and protein content is actually beneficial.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Wed Jan 11, 2017 4:45 am

Here is an article specific to huskies and racing lines.
http://www.mushing.com/articles/content.php?vw=2,,8,599   look towards the bottom and they speak of puppies.

another article http://topdogtips.com/dog-nutrition-101-a-quick-overview-of-dog-foods/

Now I am going to stress some things............if you are in the belief that puppies over 6 months and upwards to over a year need puppy specific food it is probably coming from a vet, vets do not get much education on food and nutrition. They are told by hills manufacturer reps to endorse puppy food, they come in smaller bags and cost more and now the vet suggests it, it is a money making scheme. Why would manufacturers make all life stage food if it wasn't appropriate for a puppy?

here is an article on calcium and phospherous ratios, phospherous is in meat the protein in food, and calcium is in the bone in the food. http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1659&aid=652

Now I am going to list 2 flavors of taste of the wild, since a good majority of us feed that brand. One will be the puppy formula, and the most recommended flavor for large breed puppies, remember it is large breed puppies that grow too fast and need less calcium to phospherous ratios to grow slowly for developing joints and bones. Most manufacturers do not list CA:PH however I personally called TOTW to find out Pacific Stream is within the correct ratios, since I have a large breed a year ago puppy, the other puppy formula is for medium breed puppies like huskies and has a slightly higher CA:PH ratios, so for huskies either puppy flavor is fine. This is for the Pacific Stream Puppy Flavor

Crude Protein 27.0% minimum
Crude Fat 15.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 5.0% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid) 0.05% minimum
Zinc 150 mg/kg minimum
Selenium 0.35 mg/kg minimum
Vitamin E 175 IU/kg minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.4% minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.3% minimum

Here is one of the 3 all life stages it is the wild boar flavor, the kibble is actually the same size as the puppy flavors, tiny, compared to the rest of the flavors TOTW makes, but look at the numbers they are almost identical except a slightly lower amount of Vitamin E, and imho you feed puppies more you will balance out that slight difference.

Crude Protein 29.0% minimum
Crude Fat 15.0% minimum
Crude Fiber 5.0% maximum
Moisture 10.0% maximum
DHA (Docosahexaenoic acid) 0.05% minimum
Zinc 150 mg/kg minimum
Selenium 0.35 mg/kg minimum
Vitamin E 150 IU/kg minimum
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* 2.4% minimum
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* 0.3% minimum

Lastly Sofie I switched to an all life stage food at 5 months, so that both Miya and Sofie could eat the same food. A little bit of extra info here, TOTW puppy food is 1 pound less than all life stage or the adult and costs $2 more. And instead of calling my vet, who gave me their hills puppy food, I called my breeder and asked if it was fine to switch her to an all life stage food, and he said absolutely, he fed an all life stage food anyways as tiny pups when weaned. And quite honestly most breeders do exactly that. Feed an all life stage food, it is perfectly fine, has all the vitamins and minerals and is still properly formulated for puppies, adults and seniors. The fear for puppies is rapid growth which may cause HD, however, huskies are in a low % for HD overall for the breed. My large breed puppy never rapidly grew because of switching to an all life stage food. In fact she is at the lowest end of breed standard for her breed, and is very healthy, no issues with her switching to an all life stage food.


Last edited by MiyasMomma on Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:08 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Wed Jan 11, 2017 5:00 am

Also want to add, that the article Amy posted says almost what I said, huskies 80% adult growth would be somewhere around 6-8 months, MOST huskies are done growing bone wise at 8 months (height), slow growers obviously longer. 80% of a 60 pound over standard adult husky is 48 pounds, and this is consideration on bone growth i.e. height and weight. Sadly tho the article is linked to an outdated piece from AAFCO the original article says 30% protein and AAFCO that they link to says 22% so there are contradictories within that article. A good baseline, because huskies are not the normal breed of dog, for one they lack several copies of enzymes particularly Amylase, in which they can not handle grains, can get you that scientific research article if you want. Huskies metabolize food differently than other dogs, they need higher protein and fat. baseline for huskies 25-32% protein, 15-20% fat and 3-6% fiber. Some dogs do better with slightly lower protein and fat and some do better, a happy medium is best for puppies.
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Wed Jan 11, 2017 6:07 am

Here we go found the actual paper that PETMD took from, the link Amy provided comes from this
http://www.lgd.org/library/Optimal%20feeding%20of%20large%20breed%20puppies.pdf

another article, mind you that most articles stress the importance of low calcium given to large breed puppies, medium breed puppies are not as prone to bone issues, huskies are medium breeds, and therefore one doesn't have to be as concerned with the CA:PH ratios, which over and over is the main concern for growing puppies. http://www.newmanveterinary.com/large.html

Lastly, because I belong to a gsd forum, and I have a gsd, I try and stay current for husky and gsd info. The debate about puppy food is not just here it is in that forum recently as well, and I will put up the thread, again useful info, from every day people, and a breeder or two as well. The two breeds may be different, in many ways, however feeding and nutrition for both breeds are similar, both breeds are sensitive to food, and the husky is a large medium breed dog and a gsd is a small large breed dog, and most people categorize both breeds to be similar in size, meaning gsds are a large medium breed. http://www.germanshepherds.com/forum/feeding-our-puppy/680274-vet-says-switch-1-year-old-adult-food.html one of the members, a breeder, selzer gives a brief history lesson about dog food.
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Wed Jan 11, 2017 12:12 pm

Renee, thank you for posting all that information. It's something I wondered about. Kohdi and Mishka's breeder feeds all life stages and upon bringing Kohdi home, had told me to do the same, which I did until Kohdi's first vet visit. Kohdi had the typical runny poop that puppies seem to always have and my vet asked what I fed him. The vet, like you mentioned in your write-up, recommended puppy food stating things like nutrition geared towards a puppies growing body and brain function (he wasn't trying to sell me anything though) so I thought about it and decided that's what'd I do since it's always been done like that when I've had a puppy. Runny poop cleared right up. I'd say it was coincidence, which it still may have been of course, but the same thing happened with Mishka after I brought her home. I'm not sure I would change anything if I brought a puppy home today. For me, a couple dollars here and there for a smaller bag of food I'm ok with, since I'm knowing my puppy is eating a food specifically designed for them, one they can digest properly, and gives me peace of mind knowing that I gave them the best possible start in life. That couple dollar more investment for about one year isn't a high price in the big scheme of things.
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Wed Jan 11, 2017 1:04 pm

It's been a long time since I had a puppy but have within the last year-ish gone rounds with my vet over kitten food. I feed all life stages cat food, both wet and dry, and the vet every time I would go in would tell me I had to feed kitten specific food. (they even went as far as to give me a free bag of Hills SD kitten food) So to appease my vet I bought the kitten formula of the food brand I was already feeding the all life stages of. When I got home I compared the two versions and they were nearly the same exact ratios as each other. Each brand is different but I think you will find that in better quality brands you won't see that much difference when you start reading the labels of a puppy/kitten specific food vs an all life stages food. Larger differences may be seen in poorer brands. As for the cat that was fed all life stages rather than kitten food, she is a healthy 13 pound monster. She developed just fine and so did every other puppy that I have had way back when that was fed all life stages instead of puppy food.

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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Wed Jan 11, 2017 3:39 pm

Jimmy, pointing out the size and cost difference was to prove in part that it is a scheme. Puppies need dha to grow their brains. looking at an all life stage food will have the same stuff, because what puppies need adult dogs need too. Simply put, it is far easier and better for a puppies tummy to place them on an all life stage food vs upsetting their tummies switching. The vast majority of puppies have diarrhea the first 1-4 weeks of going to a new home, and owners tend to switch foods, believing it is the food that is causing the issue vs understanding the immense stress this pup has just gone thru. Leaky gut syndrome issue is a very common issue in dogs under 18 months old, because owners will constantly switch up foods on developing bodies, causing continuous diarrhea. Imho, it is best to pick one brand that has an all life stage food and feed that, once the pup is over a year slowly rotate flavors within that brand, this is the best course of action for puppies. It will cause far less stomach issues, and primes their bellies to rotate proteins, and gives a better chance of the dog to not have food allergies. Most puppies that have severe diarrhea is due to stress going to a new home, switching foods, and too high in protein for a puppy. orijen is great example, most husky and gsd owners can not feed orijen puppy 38% protein is far too rich for most puppies, yet the CA:PH ratios are in the recommended guidelines for a large breed puppy. I would not be surprised if in the very near future the only puppy food on the market will be for large breeds, and the recommendations for medium breeds and smaller will be an all life stage.
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Thu Jan 12, 2017 1:50 am

Renee,

Thank you so much for your insightful postings on this subject. I currently have Bacchus on the Eagle Pack Power Adult (as recommended by the breeder).

Power Pack Adult Nutrition contents:

Crude Protein (min.) 30.00%
Crude Fat (min.) 19.00%
Crude Fiber (max.) 4.50%
Moisture (max.) 10.00%
Calcium (min.) 1.80%
Phosphorus (min.) 1.20%
Vitamin E (min.) 120 IU/kg
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (min.) 3.25%
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (min.) 0.75%
Glucosamine* (min.) 380 mg/kg
Total Lactic Acid Microorganisms* (min.) 70,000,000 CFU/lb
(Enterococcus faecium, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus subtilis, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, in equal amounts)



Here is the breakdown of Eagle Pack puppy for (Large and Giant Breeds) nutrients:

Crude Protein (min.)23.00%
Crude Fat (min.) 12.00%
Crude Fiber (max.) 5.00%
Moisture (max.) 10.00%
Calcium (min.) 1.50%
Phosphorus (min.) 1.00%
Vitamin E (min.) 120 IU/kg
Omega-6 Fatty Acids* (min) 2.25%
Omega-3 Fatty Acids* (min) 0.75%
Docosahexaenoic Acid (DHA)* (min.) 0.05%
Total Lactic Acid Microorganisms* (min.) 70,000,000 CFU/lb
(Enterococcus faecium, Bacillus licheniformis, Bacillus subtilis, Lactobacillus acidophilus, Lactobacillus casei, in equal amounts)

So the protein, fat, and calcium is higher in the adult (for the "Power" version)  than the puppy version for large and giant breeds (which I assume would be the puppy food from this brand given to huskies.
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Thu Jan 12, 2017 3:37 am

Well like I said earlier huskies are medium breed dogs. large breed would start at 60 pounds, so unless the sire and dam were both well over 60 pounds the large breed puppy food is not really needed. Also, if his poops are nicely formed, I would stay on the adult food, however, the lacking item in the adult is DHA. So you could stay on the adult, and purchase salmon oil, grizzly makes a good salmon oil for all life stages, lol. Were you thinking of switching to a different food? The puppy food ranks a 3.5 star and the adult a 5 star for the power pack kind only. It is a tough one for me, but I have 2 girls who have a varied amount of food sensitivities. If your pup is doing well on it I see no reason to switch, except for the lack of the dha, which I gave you an idea on how to add it. Does your breeder work the dam and sire? It is a high energy dog food, which implies she works them in harness, or a breeder who has stuck with an older, tried and true food. It was a fantastic food, today, imho, there are many that are better. Thru my experience personally, and with different dog groups, puppies have a hard time with food. It shouldn't be that way, but they do. Most common complaint is diarrhea. Once a pup hits around the 1 year mark, things change in their tummies and they more able to change over to a different food. puppies also tend to poop double, even triple the amount of a grown dog. that makes for complications too. I have decided, that what is best for a pup, may not be what an owner really wants, hahaha, because an owner wants to feed a food that they personally feel is great, and is typically not what the breeder fed. I am guilty of that too. So.......back to my original questions, is the puppy doing well on it, is his poops nicely formed and do you want to continue feeding this food?
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:35 am

Renee,

I assumed Eagle Pack (Large and Giant Breed) would be good for huskies because the website states that this dog food is formulated for dogs over 50lbs and it is my understanding that male huskies mature to be between 50-60lbs (please correct me if I am wrong on this).

I do not believe the breeder works the parents of Bacchus.

Bacchus's poops, in general, are well formed, but he has his days when they get mushy (maybe due to certain treats he gets in puppy class).

I did purchase a bag of TOTW High Praire puppy food for him to try out, but I since the formulation has so little difference with the adult version I will purchase the adult version in the future (if he does well on this brand).

What are your thoughts on Nutra-Nuggets or Instinct? The breeder recommended Nutra-Nuggets as an upgrade to Eagle Pack if I wanted a higher quality kibble.

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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Thu Jan 12, 2017 5:58 am

If you are talking nature's variety Instinct, yep super food. The Nutra, is very similar to eagle Pack, it is more niche dog food, not saying eagle Pack or the Nutra is bad, they are both fine foods, however, I personally believe huskies a prone to boredom even with food, finding a food that is quality and offers variety is a step in not being bored. Eagle and Nutra just do not offer a variety of food. NV Instinct carries a large variety of different foods, so my pick would be the instinct, although I am very partial to TOTW, Instinct is actually better quality than even TOTW. So what ever fits your budget, either TOTW or the Instinct will work great. I have had 0 issues with TOTW, both of my girls have been very healthy, shiny coats, etc on TOTW. I would wait on the adult version of the High Prairie, that one in particular, as well as the bird version and the adult pacific stream version are not all life stages, so those 3 I would wait until Bacchus is fully grown.

Do you know the size of your pups parents? The biggest issue for large breed pups is hip dysplasia, and that is not a common issue for huskies, and breed standard for a male is on the low end of 50, however, some are over and closer to the 60 pound range, since they are overall a medium breed and are not known for HD I wouldn't really concern myself over feeding a large breed puppy formula. Did the parents get their OFA hips done x rays? Are both parents over 2 years old?
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:56 pm

Bacchus's father is 53-55 lbs and his mother is 35-40 lbs. Both parents are over two years of age and have had their eyes and hips checked. The hip rating was "good" for both parents.
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PostSubject: Re: Is "puppy"diet dog food just marketing?   Tue Jan 17, 2017 12:46 am

Siberians are not large/giant breeds so you won't need to feed large/giant foods which are less in protein to keep a giant breed (think Dane) from sprouting too quickly and ruining growth plates and joints. Siberians, as a base metabolism are protein burners. They need a High protein, moderate fat, low carbohydrate food for a complete balanced diet. Quality proteins are a must.

Personally I do not do 'puppy' food unless it's for a nursing bitch, it's just too rich otherwise. Everyone here is put on the diet they will have for their lives here. We feed everyone Eagle Pack Power (exception only to the old rescue girl we have who is allergic to the primary protein in the food). Our dogs work in many harness sports and show conformation-
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