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 Opinions needed on poop issues

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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:01 pm

Jimmy, how much of the Acana are you feeding a day and are you feeding once a day or splitting it up?
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:32 pm

Jimmy - I've had limited experience with pups and diarrhea once I got Ami settled. The very first thing I would wonder is are you just plain feeding too much? That and cracked corn in the food were what did Ami in. Once I went grain free (first 4Health than TOTW, now American Journey - an experiment that is gonna' be gone once I'm through the 2nd bag. Just too many calories for chubby Ami who likes to eat.) I have read in various places that, unless your dog is eager for food, they are probably over-fed. That being said - Ami is ALWAYS acting like I starve him - he loves to eat and its now showing Crying or Very sad Most likely because, since Josh got a promotion and is working from home, he is not romping through the day with Archer.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:33 pm

Renee! I havnt seen you in forever! Ok. They get 1/4 cup in the morning, and 3/4 cup in the late afternoon. Now I do realize with less carbs, they will feel less full (?) but the anount of poop coming out of them, to me, isn't normal. And I also don't get the firm and well formed, followed 20 minutes later by about 10lbs of mush.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:45 pm

Jimmy - I just read the nutritional info on the Acana and it has fiber at 6% fiber. The TOTW High Prairie that I fed until very recently was only 4% fiber - when I switched to American Journey chicken, which has 5% fiber, I noticed the dogs were pooping more often and the slightly runny stuff at the end - at least Z'ev, he's the only one who poops on leash. The only reason I switched was because I could get 50% off first bag, 10% off auto ship and it seemed like at least as good a food. That's it - they were doing VERY well on the TOTW. Hard to believe that even 1% can make a difference but it sure did. Messed up Z'ev's pooping schedule and that is a problem for a primarily crated dog!

As for carbs, I really don't think carbs have a whole lot to do with repeated UTI's unless there is diabetes and elevated sugar is giving a nutrient rich bladder environment.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:09 pm

Acana is higher KCal so you would feed less, but it doesn't look like you are over feeding. Overfeeding tends to be that way well formed, and the end half mushy.

As far as carbs go, I personally believe. from what I have read a cleaner source of meat, Acana lists meats first then meat meals is far better for UTI issues, secondly less carbs overall will be less work for the kidneys, regardless of other issues like diabetes. So it was imho, to feed less carbs along with a cleaner meat source to avoid UTI's.

I do like the addition as Amy mentioned somewhere around here today, that adding green beans will help make a dog feel full without adding a lot of calories, just make sure they are lightly steamed or come from a can, dogs do not process raw veggies like us humans do.

It may be too high in fiber and fat, both are higher than ND in fat and fiber. I am not bashing ND, but it is a generic food and is not as high quality as many other foods, even comparing to it's sister food of TOTW. TOTW at least, regardless of which flavor, lists real meat vs ND as listing meat meals. Meat meals are rendered meat products, so it is not a clean source of meat compared to meat. I also find that huskies really do not do well on low fats, which ND is on the border line of being too low in protein and fat for huskies. I do feed the Pacific Stream because of Sofie, and then supplement raw for Miya, because the formula is low in fat for Miya, but pretty right on for Sofie, it is also lower in fiber. Acana does provide more moisture in their formula as well, another reason for the suggestion. Maybe TOTW Pacific Stream? It is similar to ND but it does contain more meat vs ND?
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:27 pm

And also, if we took out the carbs in all 3 foods, the protein % in Acana would stay pretty close to the same, TOTW would be slightly lower and then ND would be even lower. Sadly too many companies rely on carbs as an energy source and protein source, when huskies for example get their energy from fats and do better on a meat protein vs a plant protein.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:59 pm

OK - the deal on carbs (somebody on FB complaining about carbs in kibble and annoying the F### out of me.) There are 3 classes of foods: Proteins, Fats and Carbs. The total adds up to 100% So if you reduce carbs, then either, or both, percentage of Fats and Proteins have to go up. Simple math. Can be simple carbs (sugars) or complex carbs (such as those coming from legumes, fruits and vegetable)

Carbs in general are not a problem for kidneys. Proteins can be as excess protein is excreted by the kidney, but not as in UTI. Excess minerals, as in calcium or oxalates can cause stones in the kidneys. Oxalates are present in a few specific plants.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:16 pm

Acana has no potatoes or sweet potatoes in which breaks down into sugar, which makes the kidneys work harder. Huskies do better on a low carb higher fat meat protein not plant based protein diets. A husky in general will not do well on a 50% carb diet, which is the issue with ND, 4 Health and other generic lines of dog food. Peas for example is a carb and a protein, same goes with many plant based foods that is included in dog foods. People get fooled every day when they see 25% protein but only one meat meal is included in the formula, where else is the protein coming from? From the plant based foods in that formula. Dogs are not like people, they need a different set of rules to feed them properly. I am not sure what you are saying in your first paragraph Amy, but I will say that calcium does not come from meat, that is phospherous, the calcium then would be coming from carbs = plant based. So imho, lowering carbs for an animal with stones or recurrent UTI's can only help, not harm the animal. Understanding that the protein % comes from meat and carbs can also help in knowing what you are feeding. ND is almost 50% carbs, most animals do not do well on such a heavy carb diet, especially huskies. Oh shoot I could go round and round here, I wont. I just suggested that Acana was a much better food, had better meat and protein options, meat meals are not as good as strictly meat, and had better carbs and lower carbs, which also is far better for a dog with UTI issues. Curios what the FB complaint was that was annoying you, Amy?
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:33 pm

Here is an excellent article that discusses these issues. There are many more articles like this, but this one is pretty straight forward and easy to read. This is why I recommended a cleaner source of meat protein and a reduction in carbs and more specifically potato based carbs. https://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/13_4/features/Detecting-Urinary-Stones-Dogs_16215-1.html
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:32 pm

Amy- I think you and I posted at the same time, so I didn't see your original message, sorry about that...I wasn't ignoring you! Wink everything I am seeing, like you said, points to me feeding too much but honestly, I'm not. From what I see in here, most all the huskies are eating about 1 1/2 to 2 cups a day and my two are really only getting a cup a day. I honestly felt I was under feeding them, but wasn't concerned too much because Mishka I've been wanting to drop a couple pounds, but really I think she's looking pretty good now. Only treats given, are given at night and only consist of a cookie (dog biscuit) broken up in 3 sections...so it equals one dog biscuit a night. The soft poop, it's not diareah, but it's soft. It's formed, but like, messy to pick up sometimes (and Mishka seems to only want to poop on our walk) they both will poop before the walk, like Kohdi did just a few minutes ago, in about 2 hours, we will go on our walk, they will both poop again, and without fail it will be the soft stuff. And A LOT!. I always thought more fiber meant better poop, now I know better, lol. Solid Gold High Protein was at 3% fiber, and their poop was explosive. Acana is at 6%, and Natures Domain is at 4%. They both never had poop issues on Natures Domain. So fiber may be it! Although, if I remember correctly, 6% fiber in Acana goes throughout their line, I'll have to look again tonite. The way you describe Zev, rings true in Kohdi and Mishka because I do know for fact, Mishka's pooping schedule does seem to change, it's not as routine anymore. I can't say with Kohdi because, to be honest, I hardly notice most of the time when he poops, he's either super sly, lol, or I just don't seem to watch him as carefully cuz he's had zero issues health wise. Just an added note...neither Kohdi or Mishka has done the morning yellow bile throw up since being on Acana. So while they seem extremely hungry, their stomachs must not really be empty. Yellow bile throw up was worst on Solid Hold High Protein. Thank you Amy! I appreciate your insight Smile

Renee- thank you as well. I havnt read the articles yet, I just got home, I'll read them tonite. I do agree that Acana seems a healthier food than Natures Domain, but with all its health benefits, my dogs are not as "healthy". It's not healthy to poop so much, and have soft poop. Except for Mishka's UTI's, Natures Domain they did very well on. Coat was great, no itching, etc, I don't really know what you mean by it being a generic food, Kirkland (Costco) has its own line, which to me would be the generic one. I can look at the ingredient list of ND, and Acana, like I did when I came home, and definitely see a difference. I should feel awesome they're eating such a quality food in Acana, and yet they are both not healthier for it. I'm starting to think that what "we" perceive is best for a dog, actually isn't, in many cases. Anyways, I will be better able to think clearly about everything, after I re-read the advice here, and the articles you mentioned.

I have one more question though. What about mixing Acana with Natures Domain? What is everyone's thoughts on this. When they were puppies, I mixed their Blue Freedom puppy food with the Natures Domain, so I'm thinking, since this just may all be a fiber issue, and both foods by themselves aren't necessarily the best for them, one being a higher quality, and one having fiber more in line with what they need, would it be a positive, or a negative, or...completely negated, in mixing the two foods?

Thanks again Renee, and Amy, for your help Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:09 am

Jimmy, what I meant about ND being a generic, it is the generic of Taste of the Wild, same with 4 Health, the grain inclusive 4 Health and the Kirklands is the grain inclusive of Diamond. They are all made by Diamond, manufactured for taste of the wild packaged as ND or 4 Health. There is slight differences, but they are manufactured by Diamond, formulated to be similar to taste of the Wild, but use slightly lower grade ingredients to keep costs down. That is why ND lists a meat meal first, example Salmon meal, but with TOTW Pacific Stream it lists Salmon first. Listing as just meat means it hasn't been processed as much as a meat meal has. The other issue I was pointing out was the potatoes, being a starch that breaks down in to sugar, Acana has no potatoes. Plenty of people feed partial raw diets, and many feed rotational diets, I imagine mixing ND and Acana would allow for the benefits of both, even out the fiber some, and still gives a good source of animal protein and less potatoes. I would say go for it, and see how they do.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:59 am

Where did you get the information about ND being the generic of TOTW, Renee? I'd like to read it. Great article you posted up above, btw. Very informative.

I've been finding the real meat versus meat meal thing, confusing. For instance, if a food has real beef, or chicken, etc, as its first ingredient, it reads that it will contain 80% water, and when cooked, loses nearly all its original weight, whereas a meat meal, like chicken meal, beef meal, etc. is a concentrate, and contains 300% the protein of the actual meat itself. That, to me, doesn't sound like rendering. It's just confusing to me is all, cuz to me, "meal" actually sounds better, lol.

I have to leave for work. Thank you so much for your help. I may just start doing like a 60/40 mix and see how it goes, I'll have to mix food anyways to do a switch so it shouldn't upset the dogs at all. Thanks Renee
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:37 am

Would you rather drink Orange juice from concentrate or fresh squeezed orange juice? That's how I think of meat vs meal. Orange juice from concentrate is sweeter but it's lacking some balancing nutrients that are lost in the process of concentrating it. Fresh squeezed still has all the natural stuff it's supposed to have that actually makes it helpful to drink.

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:53 am

The only caveat that I'm aware of when it comes to meat -vs- meat meal is that meat meal is dry whereas the meat is (supposedly) fresh so it's moist.  It's going to lose a goodly percentage of it's mass in preparations as all the water in the meat is cooked off.

Ingredients are, in theory, listed in order by their unprepared weight - in its prepared state there may be considerably less "meat" than from meat meal.  And no, I don't know any way to compare the true mass of meat -vs- meat meal in the finished product.

<<laughing>> and I'll take my OJ from concentrate. I don't mind a reasonable pulp, but seeds and other "stuff", along with the time needed to prepare OJ, along with the cost of oranges -vs- concentrate - thanks, I do like fresh OJ but I'll take mine from a can.

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:53 pm

I would only take fresh squeezed over concentrate for the taste, Jenn. Concentrate has an aftertaste I don't like. But...extra nutrients can be added to concentrate that are supposedly beneficial, without making it taste worse. But like in meat vs. meat meal, there is 300% more protein in the meal (according to dogfoodadvisor) so...comparing ND to TOTW, ND has salmon meal as it's first ingredient ...TOTW has salmon, second ingredient in ND is sweet potato, a carb of course, but second ingredient in TOTW is peas, also a carb I think. So, to me anyways, not a huge difference .
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:43 pm

Here is the list of Diamond made products
Diamond Pet Food (numerous plants)
4Health
Apex
Canidae* (recently purchased their own manufacturing plant—it is not known when they will or if they will move all manufacturing to their own plant)
Chicken Soup
Country Value
Diamond
Diamond Naturals
Kirkland
Natural Balance dry
Nature’s Domain
Premium Edge
Professional
Solid Gold
Taste of the Wild
Wellness (one variety)
Every dog food group I belong too when people are on a budget and want to feed Diamond Naturals Grain Free or Taste of the Wild everyone recommends either 4 Health or Costco's ND, those two are considered the value line or generic lines of Diamond and TOTW.

Actually the second ingredient in TOTW Pacific stream is not peas it is ocean fish meal.

For a dog with UTI troubles it is best to provide as much water as possible.

Meat meal is cooked twice, don't let that magical number of 300% fool you, protein is protein. Here is something "More processed than fresh meat, already cooked and dried once before added to kibble "dough" and cooked again."
And This "If you are willing to add a good proportion of canned food (or fresh meat), this is less critical. It is absolutely possible to combine a kibble that's fairly low in animal protein with fresh meat or canned food containing 95-100% meat. The resulting combination has the advantage of adding less-processed meat to the overall diet. It is also a great way to enhance limited-formulation dry food for allergic and sensitive individuals, which often is rather low in protein.

Of course you aren't strictly limited to the use of canned food containing 95-100% meat, and this is not to say that canned food containing some rice, or oats, or potatoes/sweet potatoes along with meat isn't suitable - just keep in mind that your goal is to increase the proportion of meat and less processed foods in your dog's overall diet."

Explanation of meat meal vs meat, indeed it is concentrated but it is not necessarily better, especially in dogs with UTI issues, once water is added back in it is the same as meat, so no the 300% is incorrect. I will point out the dog food advisor is a good source for knowing what ingredients are in foods, and does breakdown actual carb loads, protein, etc, however every person in the dog food community, many that are trained and educated in proper dog nutrition will tell you not to believe in everything that is said on DFA, most use it for recalls only, the head guy who does the site and reviews the foods is a human dentist with no education on what is appropriate to feed dogs.

https://www.allaboutdogfood.co.uk/dog-food-ingredients/0005/meat-meal

This gives you an idea of how meat meals are made

https://thesciencedog.wordpress.com/2015/05/08/whats-the-deal-with-meals/

I am not saying that meat vs meat meal is not nutritious, what I am saying is that a dog with urinary issues needs more liquid in the diet, a clean source of meat, low carb load (especially grains and potatoes which turn into starches). Species appropriate feeding would mean feeding meat, a raw feeder will not seek out a meat meal, it is dry, and has been cooked at very high temps. You want to feed a well balanced diet. Again I am not bashing ND or 4Health for instance, heck I have changed my point of view on dog foods greatly over the last year, since including myself in groups with highly skilled people who explain the hows and the whys to food. Feed the dog in front of you, if your dog does great on a corn based food like Purina dog chow, so be it, dog thrives and fits your budget. However, if an animal is having issues, then that person needs to feed the best food in the budget that will benefit the dog with that special need, in this case Mishka has potential urinary issues she needs to be fed a food that provides as much moisture as possible, and the cleanest sources possible. You can track down where all ingredients came from with Acana, not with any of the Diamond foods. I feed Diamond foods, so I too know that it is not the best food out there.

Without knowing why Mishka had recurring UTI's the best possible route is to feed better food, and add in more moisture, otherwise, going back to the same food, and same routine can indeed have her have the same issues all over again. In a perfect world my recommendation for you is to feed a raw diet, partial raw diet, or something like The Honest Kitchen, Sojo's or Grandma Lucy's. So me mentioning that one needs to avoid meat meals, isn't about which is nutritiously better because of additions to a meat meal, it's about moisture content, and where that meat came from. Cooking anything, even in human's diets, will lower the actual good stuff found in it's raw form. I can certainly provide charts that will show a raw whatever will be more nutritious vs it's cooked counterpart.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:53 pm

First 9 ingredients in TOTW Pacific Stream...............Salmon, ocean fish meal, sweet potatoes, potatoes, peas, canola oil, garbanzo beans, salmon meal, smoked salmon

First 9 in ND.................Salmon meal, sweet potatoes, peas, potatoes, canola oil, ocean fish meal, tomato pomace, flaxseed, natural flavor

As you can see there is only 2 sources of meat in ND and both are meals, where as, TOTW contains 4 with 2 being meals and the other 2 fresh meat, that has been cooked only once. There is a difference, they are similar, but 4 meats compared to 2 and none of those two are actual fresh meat, has to say something to you? I am not saying switch to TOTW, because it still contains potatoes, and you really want to avoid potatoes, what I am saying is that ND is the value line of TOTW. Meat is the most expensive item in dog food, having 2 meat meals is cheaper than 2 meat meals plus 2 meats.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:05 pm

Judging from ingredients, Renee, I'd say both ND and TOTW are value brands. In no way, from what you posted, do I see ND being a "value line" of TOTW. If TOTW has a value line at all, it's pretty sad. I see two average foods, with one being only available at a membership outlet and it's recipe changes reflecting that. If it were the same recipe, it couldn't be sold at Costco, under the Costco name.

What I don't understand, is why you get so upset? All I said was that the real meat vs. meat meals is confusing to me, when one, to me anyways, "appears" better . I'll read this better, and respond better, when I get home but just wanted to post this now to show you I have not been arguing, only needing a better understanding. I've already said I didn't want to change their food again, trying to find the right one, they've both had poop issues since taking them off ND, when only one was "sick" and the sickness wasnt even poop related. So by improving their quality of kibble, I have two "sick" dogs now instead of one AND I personally don't think either better food fixed Mishka's UTI issue, I think it has more to do with the cranberry supplement, for the reasons given in the article you posted. Take for example, moisture content. I believe ND is 10% versus Acana 12%...considering all the quality meats, and ND having only meat meals which are "so not magical", I think ND is doing pretty damn good. Keep in mind tho, that I think ND is a mediocre food, so please don't make the ND vs. TOTW comparison. I used that in my above posting cuz those are the two comparidons you brought up in your post. Anyways Renee, I have appreciated your advice, your insight, and never wanted to upset you. I thank you.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:17 pm

Jimmy, in defense here - I don't read that Renee was upset. Possibly a bit long in expressing her opinions (and if I remember right we're allowed to have varying opinions, yes?)

I will suggest that you've had an ongoing problem with your pups and I know how frustrating that can be - and you might be reading into her answers, maybe?

Of course, if I'm wrong feel free to disagree, but maybe in PM?

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:39 pm

I think she is just trying to be thorough. She also has to work today so she is trying to put the most information into a response as she can with the time that she has. Sometimes it takes a few different tries and explanations to get the right lay of words to make comparisons or explanations click since you said you were having a hard time understanding between meat and meal. Kinda like do you prefer dinner the night you make it or do you prefer the microwave reheats two days after the fact? Meat is like tonight's fresh lasagna, meal is like that lasagna three days later that the microwave doesn't want to get the center warm on. The ND to TOTW comparison is in nutritional value as a whole really, not just in 1 or 2 ingredients. But as she said, you have to feed what works for your dogs even if that is something that on paper is less nutritious. But with the background you are facing you just have to be aware that if you go back to ND and the cranberry supplements can't overcome the moisture difference then you could be yet again faces with a change, at least for one dog. Food is often a bit of trial and error. You've done a lot of it and I think Renee has given a lot of information as to the whats and whys, but it's up to you to filter through that with your budget and comfort in mind as well as your dog's well being. No one can do that for you.

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:41 pm

I wasn't arguing as well, just showing you the differences. TOTW is the highest grade food in the Diamond food brand, unless you consider the few that they make for Wellness and Canidea. Diamond makes ND, I really do not understand why you do not believe Diamond makes ND, nor how 4 meats compared to 2 meats would mean both are a value line? It is cheaper to buy meat meal vs meat, ND only has meat meal, where as TOTW has 2 meats and 2 meat meals, therefore TOTW costs more for people to buy, and costs more to make. Costco does not make ND nor Kirkland, it is made by Diamond under the Costco name, Costco does not have a manufacturing plant to make dog food. Just like Petco doesn't mke their on food, nor does 4 Health make their own food. 4 Health is almost an exact ingredient to ingredient same food as ND, made by Diamond. I called 4 Health and asked where they made their food and under what brand name, some are made at the TOTW manufacturing site and some are made at Diamond. A good example is Earthborn, they make Eartborn which is their top of the line food, they also have Pro Pac, in which they actually call Pro Pac their value line and then also make Sport Mix. Sadly Diamond is not as transparent as Earthborn and do not say things like that. But I did post a list for you so you could clearly see what Diamond makes, they make ND, ND was also part of the 2012 recall that everyone is still talking about 5 years later.

Cranberry is fine, and may be why she no longer has UTI issues, and that is awesome I am happy about that. But I really do not understand why you or for other people who give things like benedryl when their dog has allergies, I don't understand why someone would want to give a supplement forever to curb an issue, when a better diet will fix the problem? I am confused about that. You obviously can and will do things the way you see fit, no argument there at all, I am just pointing out some things that most people don't understand, as in meat meal vs meat, and how to understand what is a better food. Dogs are carnivores, at best obligate, they require meat to survive and thrive. Huskies in particular need meat based foods, with meat based fats, and little carbs. They get their energy from fats not carbs. Comparing the first 9 ingredients, the first one has more meat in the food vs the second one, therefore the first one is a better food, especially for breeds like Siberians. There is no debate nor argument, a person feeding a husky and looked at those 2 choices with out knowing which is which brand, and knowing a meat based kibble is better will choose the first one over the second one every time. I do not see how you can equate the two as being the same? Most people trained in food and nutrition will say look at the first 5 ingredients, if you did you will see only 1 meat in ND and TOTW has 2, again a person would choose TOTW as a better food to feed vs ND.

BUT, I never said for you to switch to TOTW, I was only pointing out that ND is a value line, I still would not feed TOTW to an animal that has urinary issue because of the potatoes, in which ND and TOTW are quite equal in that department. As with anything, you must look at the whole picture, and also understand food and nutrition, every dog is different and in a perfect world I would say everyone should feed a species appropriate food which imho is raw., and that is just not feasible for most of us.

I really do not understand the beef you have with Diamond and TOTW, it is what it is, within the brand name Diamond, Diamond grain free and TOTW is the top of the line kibble for that brand, excluding Wellness and Canidae since Diamond does not exclusively make all of their food, only some of their food. The others on the list is either a generic version of the two or is limited ingredient lines, or a niche line like Solid Gold having a low carb line. The list I provided is what Diamond makes.

Yes Al I am trying to explain things, maybe long winded, but I do not understand how else I can explain why certain foods are better? I have never, ever put down ND, it is a fine food for dogs who have no issues. Just like Purina One is a fine food for a dog who has no issues. But if a dog has issues, and someone asks for help I will point out pros and cons of specific foods, to better educate the person asking and in general. I wish not to argue, and prefer to have someone say Oh I see, ok that makes sense, etc. I am done answering food questions in this forum. Take my advice or leave it, what ever, I have studied food for dogs for 5 years, and have studied with well educated people, who are far more skilled than myself.

Y'all take care, I will stick to posting pics in HOTM
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:52 pm

Ok, let me do this person by person, point by point, so I don't miss anything, and a post about poop issues doesn't continue in a debate on TOTW vs ND.

Al, it's quite simple really, so no need for a pm. Renee posted extensively on TOTW being the superior food to ND, then posted again a few seconds later, further "proof" to TOTW's superiority. I took that as being upset by whatever I said, as to my opinion of TOTW. If I read into that wrong, my apologies. Two posts, of the exact same subject, to me, just means it bothered the person enough to feel to post again, it's not the same as someone forgetting to add something to their post, and posting again. Earlier in this thread, I also detected into Renee's posts a certain attitude (not the right word, but kinda fits) into something Amy posted. I appreciate ALL advice when I seek advice, I hate to see any type of attitude, because there is value in every post that shouldn't be negated.

Jenn-...I agree with everything you posted. The comparisons of meat and meat meal make sense to me in that context, and I agree that if a food works for you, then you should feed it, regardless of whether it's got a high star rating or not. Just in the 3 years I've been here, ND has gone from 4.5 stars, to 3.5, and what's interesting is TOTW has gone from 3.5 stars to 4.5 stars. Recipe changes? Perhaps. I have my own theory though as to the why. For the record, I do NOT believe ND played any part in Mishka's UTI's. Vets opinion, and I posted it here before, is that Mishka has an inverted vulva, which according to the article Renee posted, could fix itself, or require surgery to remedy. Diet can help, but is not the cure all. Seeing how first the Solid Gold, and now the Acana affect their poop, it's actually more a concern of moisture being lost that Mishka needs . I wasn't seeing that with ND. So the 2% moisture content between ND and Acana, is really negated when she is pooping out that difference in moisture. Am I making sense?

Renee-<sighs> where do I even start?! Ok...first, where do you get that I don't believe Diamond makes ND? Not only have you and I discussed ND in threads, but also many pm's, so you know very well that I know who makes ND. In this thread particular, I stated I do NOT believe ND to be a "value line" of TOTW. Personally, I think Diamond itself IS a value line. Different recipes for different markets, but all a generic type food. As I also said, Costco/Kirkland sells a Diamond food under the Kirkland name, two actually, the Kirkland brand, and then the ND, they can't sell the same TOTW recipe under the Kirkland name, so the recipe has to be changed a bit. TOTW, ND, and whatever else name you put under the Diamond name, are all just different recipes for a generic/value line of food. A couple fishies in the first ingredients aren't gonna sway me into believing TOTW is a superior food. You "defend" TOTW the way I somewhat defend ND, why? probably because it has worked for us. Don't bring up the rating system to me, as I mentioned to Jenn already, those stars seem to change on whims (or $$$) ND used to be rated higher than TOTW, and just an FYI, TOTW is not Diamond's highest rated kibble, take a look at some of the Kirkland lines (which cost less than ND by the way) so you see, I have no beef with Diamond! I have fed Diamond, very comfortable in doing so in fact, for years and years. You say you don't bash ND, but in the time I've known you, you have...you're just not upfront about it. I've seen it over and over. Take a look at the post you posted last for instance, where you use ND and Purina One in the same sentence. Really??? You also point out that ND was part of that recall, but I don't see TOTW being mentioned Wink and what's up with this current TOTW issue that's all over the news? Doesn't apply to the recipe you feed, I know, so I guess the issue doesn't exist, right? Ok...so next point. The cranberry supplement. Very simple. I'd rather zMishka have a supplement than to undergo surgery. Since her uti situation is relatively new (less than a year) I am far from knowing if she will be on a supplement her entire life or not. For now, it's doing its job. According to the article you posted, many dogs with UTI's undergo the same antibiotic regimen that Mishka did, and it's not enough, like for Mishka, and have to go on a longer regimen to conquer the uti, just as I did with Mishka. Some even have to go on lifetime antibiotic regimens, as I'm sure you read, but Mishka hasn't Smile fior all I know, the last, longer, antibiotic regimen conquered her UTI issue. I don't know that for sure, it could also have been the supplement. A supplement, vs surgery, vs lifetime antibiotics...I choose the supplement. When I feel enough time has passed, I will stop her supplement, and see what happens.

Ok, so. I'm done with the ND vs TOTW debate. I honestly have appreciated ALL your help. I either misread things into what you posted, or you misread things into my posts, really no reason to pout and refuse to help people anymore, making me the bad guy. We have a difference of opinion between ND and TOTW, that is all. My thread isn't titled TOTW vs ND, I merely asked where you were getting your information from that ND was TOTW's "value line" . When I look at Jenns post, of the microwave vs fresh lasagna...and then look at your posts of how TOTW is superior to ND, even though you wouldn't recommend it either! You can maybe see how you took the thread in another direction? Possibly? Even though what you said, and what Jenn said are similar, the whole TOTW thing pretty much clouded anything I read from then on. Take care Renee, and thank you again. I've gone to you for help before on nutrition, in pm's, so you must know I value your advice, please don't make more of this than it is, which to me is only a difference of opinion, on something that isn't even related to my posts question.

You can't put a *brand* up on a pedestal using one of its recipes, Renee. All recipes should have the same nutritional value, to be called, for instance, Diamonds top kibble. In the few minutes I had before I had to leave for work this morning, I jumped on dogfoodadvisor just to see the top two ingredients you mentioned in your post. The second ingredient in that particular TOTW recipe, being rated, is peas, like I stated. So the difference between TOTW, and my particular recipe of ND, is one...not two, and certainly not four, like you say Pacific Stream is. Now in that one ingredient, it's meat vs meat meal, so while I get the difference between the two in theory of "lasagna", a 3 day old lasagna heated up in the microwave, doesn't increase its nutritional value (in this case, protein) by 300% over its counterpart. I get that meat meal is not as good as meat, truly I do, I don't believe the Acana I'm feeding as any meal in it, it's just my personal opinion, that the slight difference between the two in nutritional value, is enough to declare that ND is a value line of the "top of the kibble line" TOTW,  and any other version is genetic and value based. I mean seriously, how many times has a member in here requested advice on food, on a budget, and you responded with TOTW? Diamond, in all its versions, is a generic value line. It's a decent food, for the money. I don't necessarily think that's even a bad thing, my dogs did better on it, than they have on two different 5 star kibbles.

I'm done. I think, like Amy mentioned, it's a fiber issue, and I'll be mixing Natures Domain with the Acana and see if I notice improvement. Thank you to everyone, for your insight.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:48 am

I think examples used has clouded the initial point in this thread of attempting to describe what exactly within any food could cause issues and why. From how I've read this whole thing it's not a brand bash so much as making examples from the brands we know and use. At the end of the day you need to do what you think with what of all this information makes sense to you and forget the names applied to all the ingredients. Choose the food you want and hope that it works out. There's plenty of info here in the instance that if it doesn't work out you have the information I think to make a change. All food aside there's been a lot of blame on food for something that might not even be food related anymore. As long as you have been at this it's completely possible that the poop has gone soft because of the weather. Hard to say until you swap back and give it a try.

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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Wed Jun 21, 2017 11:19 am

The poop issues aren't recent, Jenn. They both havnt had normal poop since taking them off of Natures Domain. It went from explosive poop on Solid Gold, to "normal" poop with soft poop immediately following/and too often. So that's...maybe 4-5 months of problem poop.

In my opinion, it is food related.

Thanks Jenn. I started mixing the two foods yesterday so I will know something soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Opinions needed on poop issues   Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:20 pm

Jimmy, I had a thought last night similar to Jenn's. But thinking of pool water. Assuming, maybe incorrectly, that you sanitize with chlorine. Chorine breaks down into something and regular table salt. When I have colonoscopy, the prep includes drinking a solution with high salts to cause osmotic diarrhea. I'm wondering if a little excess salt from drinking pool water might be adding excess salts to their diet might be causing soft stool?

And second thought... What about adding a bit of bone meal to their food? Long ago their was a thread with WPSkier and using bone meal for poop.
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