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 Could it be the food?

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GravityM
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PostSubject: Could it be the food?   Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:32 pm

Hey guys,
So Miyas mouth looks like this...



And she has been on Totw since April. Now I've been hearing  A LOT of bad things happening with people's dogs and blaming the food recently, so I'm wondering could the food be the cause? I haven't seen any recalls, it is worrysom. Or could it be a zinc deficiency?

I made the switch to ACANA today, mainly because the things I've been hearing and I'm hoping better quality food might clear up her issue. Plus their food is awesome!

Has anyone dealt with anything like this with their husky? Opinions welcome TIA Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:10 am

That looks suspiciously like zinc related dermatitis. At least from the pictures I've seen and the location is correct.

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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:10 am

Poor Miya Sad

How long has it looked like this? Which recipe of TOTW was she eating?
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:14 am

Ditto Amy's comment.  I haven't had any occurrences of it with my pack but from the pictures I seen, I'd say she hit it head on.  Time for a vet visit and a scraping ....
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:28 am

@al & Ami- So do you guys think it's from feeding taste of the wild?

@Jimmy- She is on the high prairie formula, well..WAS. i also suppliment their food with Missing link skin and coat. Mainly for Memphis and his dry skin.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:57 am

I just had to go looking and found this article that strongly suggests that's it's an inability to transfer zinc from the gut into the bloodstream. So based on that, I'd have to say no.
They say:
Quote :
The affected dogs were all on a well-balanced commercial dog food that was sufficiently supplemented with zinc. It appears the skin disease is a result of several causes, primarily related to a genetic defect in intestinal absorption. This has been well documented in the Alaskan Malamute breed. The onset in the appearance of skin lesions has been also linked to estrus, severe stress, or severe diarrhea.

So it would appear that the food isn't the problem.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 1:48 am

That article was hard for ME to read, I found myself skimming over most of it. Last paragraph though, J, made me wonder about the supplement you are giving Miya.

Say I wanted to compare zinc levels in kibble, how would I do that? Is there any place that says, for example, Acana is, I dunno, 12% zinc and TOTW is like 8% zinc?
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 4:06 am

I agree with Al and Amy. So sorry that Miya is having troubles, but a vet needs to do a skin scrape to determine for sure it is ZRD. No the food is not the issue. The issue is the genetic make up of the dog, not being able to process zinc correctly. Zinc amounts in food is typically similar, to be balanced for what a dog needs. It is a malabsorption issue. So you could give say the 12%, but the dog can only process 25% of the amount, leading to a deficiency. It has been known, probably decades ago when dogs were fed a poorly made food, to say the food caused the issue. However, TOTW would not be considered poor or unbalanced. A vet visit is in order, to verify ZRD and if so how much is needed and form of zinc to use. I would mention the supplement, there may be something in it that is causing the malabsorption, is the supplement something new you have been giving? It is an excellent supplement, it may not be excellent tho for Miya.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 6:36 am

@Al - Huh okay thanks that's an interesting read, I don't know much about zrd or how to help her maybe adding things like fish oil to her food?

@Jimmy - Im not sure, I guess it could be but i think it has kelp that has high zinc.. if I remember right. I guess its something I'd have to ask the vet or however they'd determine it's zrd

I'd like to know where that info is too someone help lol

@Renee - Thanks :/ she is acting herself & everything she just scratches her face.. my husky is broken lol in all serious though, thanks that was very informative I am going to have to go see a vet (which I haven't yet since I moved) I have been giving them the supplement for a few months so it could be the cause. I can try giving it only to Memphis since it's more for him anyways.

Thanks for your help guys! Hopefully she gets better soon.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:40 am

Kenzi gets this from time to time. I've treated the spot with neosporen in the past but have Zinpro zinc supplement. It spreads on their food.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B01N2TYGE2/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o08_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

To answer Jimmy's question about percentages between foods. TOTW is around 150mg/kg minimum (could be more because they don't seem to distinguish amounts per flavor) of zinc. Acana is anywhere from 220mg/kg to 270mg/kg depending on the flavor. While you COULD be getting more zinc from Acana it isn't much more and maybe not more at all since TOTW doesn't break down their amount by flavor. High Prairie could have comparable zinc to Acana they just don't list it and instead they go by the base minimum that they are deriving from a formula you've never fed. None the less the potential difference between the food isn't enough to make a dent if the dog can't absorb it properly, which is the likely culprit. So of the potential 100 or so mg/kg difference there might be the dog might only be gaining 10-20 mg/kg more by the switch. Can't say for certain, but that is the theory. Acana is still a great food to feed and there is nothing wrong with the switch. I probably wouldn't swap back to TOTW if I could afford to feed Acana, but the switch is unlikely to fix this issue.

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Last edited by TwisterII on Thu Jul 20, 2017 12:30 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : clarity and added research)
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 11:55 am

The treatment is adding extra zinc to their diet. Problem is not totw. Your vet can dx and TX.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Thu Jul 20, 2017 2:38 pm

I agree with Amy 100%, a vet needs to diagnose this, only because it could be something else, as well as too much zinc can be as bad as not enough. The supplement if it has kelp would provide additional zinc, but again if she is not absorbing enough, then she may need a different form of zinc that would work better.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Fri Jul 21, 2017 1:25 pm

Thanks for all your help guys!
I'll be sure to bring up everything and figure out what's the best way to go about it Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:17 pm

I've got a question for the people more experienced than myself. With ZRD, does the mouth area begin to look like this from the dog itching at that area,, or does the fur just kinda start eroding in that area?
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 2:48 pm

I am no expert on ZRD, only from what I've read, but I strongly suspect the disorder causes the loss of hair, inflammtion not the resulting itching.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:31 pm

Read the article I to which posted a link - it says there that ... well, no, it doesn't specifically say that ZRD causes the loss of hair and "thick crusts, erythema, scaling and occasional purulent exudation symmetrically around the eyes, mouth, pressure points, muco-cutaneous junctions (vulva, prepuce) and scrotum" but these are listed under the symptoms.

When I read that article, I noticed that this (ZRD) seems to be associated with "diets that are supplemented with higher levels of calcium or phytates can reduce plasma levels of zinc by directly binding or interfering with zinc uptake and absorption. Phytate is a plant-based protein source." I glossed over that since most of our dogs are fed primarily meat based product, but I wonder if 1) the plant supplements or 2) the plant based food might be one of the causes of ZRD as we see it. (( causes is not the right word, the cause is a known genetic defect - aggravated <??>, possibly, by the plant based protein in the foods ))
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 3:47 pm

That's what I was wondering, if ZRD caused itching. Jane and I were talking via IM before she started this thread, and my first thought when seeing the pic was ZRD. However, it's only around her mouth, nowhere else, and started out as Miya itching at the very corner of her mouth (from what I understood) which made me wonder more about it being an allergy type thing. Since I'm basically clueless on ZRD, I didn't want to lead Jane in the wrong direction so I am glad she sought all of your opinions here. My questions are to learn more and anyone else reading this, learning more and/or offering their own experiences.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:00 pm

Al, that is how I read it as well. Tho keep in mind, even the best foods out there rely on potato and pea protein (the grain free foods that many of us feed) and we all assume that the majority of the grain freed food's protein content comes from meat. However, if only one or two meat proteins are listed, and the food is say 29% protein, you need to go beyond the 2 meats to see where else the food obtains protein. That is why I stress to people on the forum that if your dog is having issues, more than likely there is a plant based protein diet you are feeding. So the more animal proteins listed the cleaner the source of protein your dog is getting. Too many companies rely on pea protein, even Acana for example, however, with Acana they also include several animal proteins. So looking at the food you feed, and your dog has issues, really look at where the protein is coming from. You can have 3 different foods that you are looking at and all 3 contain as an example, 29% protein as fed. But really look at the ingredients. Dog food #1 has 2 meat sources (listed as an example beef and then beef meal), then lists different plant based proteins. Dog food #2 has 4 meat sources (listed as an example beef, chicken, lamb, chicken meal), then list maybe a couple plant based proteins. Dog food # 3 may have 6 different meats listed, and maybe only 1 plant based protein. So reading labels goes beyond % and meat/meat meals, and what constitutes protein. If the food you want to feed lists for example salmon meal, then plant based items, then another meat meal further down the list, the plants are the higher source of protein, it will shuffle the first listing of the meat in the form of the salmon meal further down the line. However, if the food you are looking at contains salmon, salmon meal, then plant based items it will contain more meat. Lastly, the third kibble lists salmon, trout, salmon meal then some plant based then more meats, it will contain a higher level of animal protein. The more animal protein listed as the first ingredients the more animal protein the kibble will contain. There is also some talk in nutrition for dogs, that peas can mimic estrogen, and I would have to say an unaltered dog may have issues with too much hormones.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:15 pm

So the way I read it, it actually can be the food that instigated this (?) TOTW is plant based, I'm not sure how the supplement Miya was on, in addition to the TOTW, fits in, but I suppose it's possible it could have been just enough to complicate things a bit. What I'm not really clear on though, is if Miya or any other dog in this situation, has to already have issues with zinc absorption, or if just the right combination of things is enough to actually trigger the issue.

Changing to Acana, which is meat based, is probably a really good thing then.


Last edited by Artic_Wind on Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:26 pm

As far as ZRD is concerned, it may show up similar as an allergy would, however, an allergy to something will be the whole body and not a specific part of the body like ZRD appears to be. Itching is just part of an allergy issue, whereas itching and the hair loss and the redness typically is the only outward sign. Allergies will manifest and the hair loss and redness is only typical if the problem gets out of hand or is ignored for treatment. Allergies will show up as ear infections, itching, local itching of paws where a dog will chew on, goopy eyes, stink of the fur. Loss of fur and redness would only be seen if the allergy goes beyond those symptoms, and the issue would be ongoing for a very long time. I am only guessing , but with ZRD the itching and redness will probably go hand in hand at the same time. Sofie had all of the symptoms I mentioned, she is allergic to chicken, eggs and flax in kibble, she would have to itch and bite herself to the point of being raw in order for redness or hair loss to be seen, she had the issue of allergies for several months, yet no redness and no hair loss. So I would assume tho similar, ZRD is more pronounced than an allergy.

Jimmy, yes and no......could TOTW contribute maybe, could a lower quality food make it appear faster, possibly. It is a genetic issue, so it is a problem from the inside out, and not all huskies have the issue, so it is a genetic issue, otherwise all huskies would have it, and those that are fed a lower quality grain free or those who feed grain inclusive would have far more issues, which isn't the case. Also most quality foods add in a zinc supplement for this reason, issues with ZRD. The key issue is that the dog does not absorb all of the zinc that is provided in the kibble. Would a plant based protein kibble help, possibly, and can a meat based kibble make the symptoms disappear, unknown. I do understand people home remedying for ZRD, but, over usage of Zinc is not good for a dog as well. That is why a few of us mentioned going to the vet, especially since Miya is also being supplemented with kelp, which is the typical home remedy for ZRD. Obviously something is wrong, however, in this case, since Miya is getting adequate amounts of zinc in TOTW and is also being supplemented with zinc in the form of kelp, she clearly is not absorbing all of the zinc, and now has a deficiency. There is also several ways a dog can be supplemented for zinc, and only a vet will be able to see what type of zinc will work best for Miya. So it is hard to say, I would say in this instance NO TOTW did not contribute to the problem, there are 4 forms of ZRD, and husky based ZRD is typically a genetic issue, not food based issue, but again only a vet will be able to determine what form of ZRD Miya has.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 4:38 pm

Renee, thank you for all that information. My own theory, I suppose, was maybe all our huskies do "have" it (only because it seems to be a really huge issue in huskies) only not to the point of, I don't know the right words, but...showing itself (?) and why I was thinking that just the right combination of things can trigger it.

Jane can post herself when she reads all this, but it is my understanding that the supplement with kelp was just a supplement, not something Miya was taking cuz she had too. With Memphis and his allergies, Jane might have just been supplementing both their foods as a "good for them " type of thing. But yeah, Jane can address that part better than me,
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:04 pm

Jimmy, that is why I mentioned seeing a vet, being that she is supplemented with the kelp, and the issue appeared anyways, then it leads me into thinking it is a mal absorption issue. Meaning, no matter how much zinc Miya is getting she is not getting enough. If the supplement gave Miya enough zinc she wouldn't have the issue. So I do understand that she is giving the supplement fo "good for them", it certainly, imho, didn't contribute to ZRD just like TOTW didn't, in Miya's case it is all about not getting enough zinc, no matter how much is fed. From the article Al posted, it seems to be that plant proteins stick to the zinc and that is why she isn't benefiting from all the zinc she is getting. As far as the supplement, it is high quality and an excellent supplement, but for Sofie, nope I can't use that brand, they all have flax in it. Since there are 4 forms of ZRD, it is best to have a vet diagnose and treat with the appropriate zinc amount and in what form that will work best for Miya. Zinc comes in a variety of ways, and one way may not work for a dog where another will. Beyond that, it is out of my scope, since I have never dealt with ZRD personally, but do understand that there are several ways a dog can have the issue. Typically in mals and huskies, it is genetic and it is a case of the dog doesn't absorb all of the zinc that is given within kibble and or supplements.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:07 pm

Taking your last comment (from two messages ago) out of context.  The ZRD effect assoctiated with Mal / Huskies (as well as Dobies and Danes) is due to a genetic defect in the dog.  What I noted in my reply to Jimmy is specifically related to this group of dogs - that the plant based diets inhibit the uptake of zinc is, from this article, a given.  

To further complicate this - and make a vet visit necessary to resolve it - is that calcium and phosphorus, both of which play an important part of a dogs health also inhibit zinc uptake ...

If the transfer of zinc from nutrients is only 20% of the zinc available in the food then one could be giving their dog a 'good quality food' and still suffer from a lack of absorption.

I would be, personally, disinclined to say that TOTW or Acana (or any other food) is directly contributing to the problem.  But we're discussing a known genetic defect in our northern breeds that can be influenced by the food they're eating.  Hence, I do agree with you that (since I think each case is unique) "only a vet will be able to determine what form of ZRD" is presenting itself.

ETA:  No, Jimmy, certain of our dogs exhibit the problem and those would be those who have the genetic defect.  I'd have to go back to pull the quotes, but I've seen mention a couple of places where good breeders (again!) are aware of the problem and are breeding away from it.

Part of the problem that I see with 'enhancements' is that zinc is chemically active so adding more is (again I'd have to go back for specifics) apt to cause other problems since it, in overabundance, would attach to other needed chemicals.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 5:11 pm

And to add, just like peas, flax is also another item that mimics hormones. Sadly it may be a case where Miya will have to be spayed, since it is also triggered by hormones. So there are too many reasons and too many differences to pinpoint which form of ZRD Miya has, and what will work to clear the skin issue.

Yes, Al, you and I are on the same page. There is too many things going on here for any of us to say what will work, and how it was brought on. It is a genetic issue, so that is why not all huskies have it. And yep, way too much issues to figure out what will work best. It is an issue that I highly recommend not treating at home, because as we both said, too much zinc can pose a whole lot of other "bad" issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Could it be the food?   Sat Jul 22, 2017 11:45 pm

That's the one thing I really dislike about totw is all the potatoes in the food..And the one thing I like about Acana, no potatoes.. so I asked my friend Jessica (from gonetothesnowdogs) because her husky had a very very simular thing happen to her mouth and eye that really did mimic what looked like zrd. She said that everyone immediately came to that conclusion, though she didn't think that is what it was. She thought it was from a bad batch of Dr time kenisis she was feeding at the time and also mentioned that totw is manufactured at the same plant, I find that interesting! She also mentioned that a friend of hers with ten huskies, five of them had the same issue and she also fed Dr time kenisis to her huskies. So her vet finally said that it was a form if allergies/dermatitis so she switched to a grain free version of Dr tims and her husky had been fine since.
Now with miya, she has been on grain free foods since I got her.. at 6 months old. I haven't had ANY issues like this until recently which is why I made me think it was the food i was feeding but like other have said it can take time for something like this to appear especially if it IS a deficiency.. So this sounds very similar to all the things I've been hearing about totw recently, but it could be something completely different. I just don't want to rule out the food. It is a good food, just maybe not for Miya.

So as Jimmy mentioned, I told him that the site started out in the corners of her mouth I noticed about maybe a month ago, I also noticed how Miya would kick her mouth very hard. Which I think could possibly have made it worse by not letting the area heal. I would put coconut oil on the area thinking it might be some type of skin infection..whuch I COULD be, hoping to heal the area. It makes me think allergies also because Memphis had something very similar and I did take him to the vet...

I thought he has lip fold dermatitis, turned out he didn't and  the vet said he had allergies and that is why he was itching so badly (he would rub his face on the concrete :/ ) this is a pic you can see how dry his mouth is, almost scaly  



He was given some kind of pill to help his itching ( i forget the name) but I felt like a bad dog mom, I wanted him to feel better without these pills so I began changing his diet to try and help him, I true different proteins to see if it helped. I switched from, what I thought was high quality brands from one to the other. Canadae victor totw fromm. He was still a miserable dog. Until recently, when I started him on missing link. I don't know what miracle ingredient is in this stuff but it cut his itching to almost nothing I'd say about 90% and the hair in his ears and on his mouth grew back. I have come to realize that Memphis is an anxious dog, and I think he sloths himself by licking his legs/paws & he gets ito a frenzy unless I tell him to stop so I know your pain Renee.. i hope rhat you find a supliment without flax to help Sophie.

So if Miya is allergic to something she is eating doesn't it make since it would make the skin of her mouth react? I could be wrong just a thought.

Also yes I was just supplementing Miya's food cause I figured it is good for her, not that she needs it. It really is concerning that if she does have zrd, I would think That her breeder would have tested for it? Is that even a thing?She is a well know breeder.

This is the pic of her mouth when it was just starting



I hope it's not zrd and she had to be spayed cause I would like to at least get a couple points with Miya in the ring before I spay her, but she will be spayed eventually. sooner or later. She was going to be next after Memphis but we ended up moving and I haven't been to the vet down here yet (no reason too until now ..) but I think I have a good one picked out Smile

I agree way to many variables here and I don't think there is anyway of knowing just by a picture, I plan to take Miya to the vet next week. I will let you know if it looks better or worse beforehand as well..I am curious if the acana helps any.
I have a six week old baby at home so this complicates things just a little! Lol

Thank you all for the responses to my post..I wasn't expecting it! I love how everyone is so caring on this forum when one of our dogs isn't well..so thank you each for taking the time to help..Xx
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