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 Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat

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arkentect
Newborn
Newborn


Join date : 2017-08-07

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PostSubject: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 3:10 pm

Hey Everyone,

First time poster here.

My guy Kato just turned 2 years old last friday. Ever since right around his first birthday his fur started to get a copper tone to it. I figured it was the baby fur getting ready to be blown out and that his black adult fur would come in. Well not the case. He currently has a patches where the gaurd fur is longer than the undercoat but the copper color has taken over and he's still soft and fluffy like a pup. I asked the Vet about this and he said it could be a few things. First and least likely was Hypothyroidism, second would be Cushings and the most likely would be alopecia x. Kato's fur has no bald spots or thin areas and seems healthy.

Anyone have any ideas? I don't mind his color as long as he's healthy and its not caused by something I'm feeding him or not feeding him. btw as a pup he was on Eukanuba Large Breed Puppy Chow. He's currently on Canidae Salmon Limited Ingredient food. He also doesnt spend a ton of time in the sun so I don't think its bleached from that. Here are some pics of his black and white coat as a pup and now his copper color. Thanks in advanced for your insight!
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Kato110
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Kato210
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Kato310
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Kato410
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MiyasMomma
Senior
Senior
MiyasMomma

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 3:21 pm

Oh wow, I have never seen this. Very strange, since copper means liver coat, but he doesn't have a liver nose or liver eyeliner. I really can't help you, maybe someone else more knowledgeable in coat changes would have some insight. Do you have any pics of your dog in the middle of the change, where you could see black and some copper? Also do you have any puppy pics, like say pre 10 weeks old, or new born pics? Especially baby pics showing the back?
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arkentect
Newborn
Newborn


Join date : 2017-08-07

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 3:47 pm

All I do is takes pics of this dog so I have plenty lol.

New Born
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Kato510

10-11 Weeks

Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Kato610

Beginning of the Change (Head and His hips)
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Kato710

Here he is now... No lie, there is no filter on this, no editing of any kind. He is this red now
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 20170210
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MiyasMomma
Senior
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MiyasMomma

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 5:20 pm

We have a breeder on this forum. She doesn't come on too often, but hoping that she may see this. From what she has explained, the stripe down a new borns back is the darkest the dog will eventually be. Which in your dogs case, he should be black and white. Have you spoken to the breeder? I would if you can to ask if this is typical of their pups. Huskies do transform a bunch from born to what their coat will really be as an adult but this is radical to me. We also have a member who have a dog with similar colors, her dog is more sable, but can see drastic copper as well as black. Believe her dog is a rescue, so I don't believe she has puppy pics. I do have a friend who understands coat genetics in huskies, but she is not a member here. Do you mind if I grab a few pics to show her and see if she has ever seen this? I would swear they are two different dogs in these pics, except for the beautiful M that is part of his mask. I also love his almond shaped eyes. <3 I wont grab pics with out your permission, and it may take me a day to get a hold of her, let me know.
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arkentect
Newborn
Newborn


Join date : 2017-08-07

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 5:47 pm

we have mentioned it to the breeder and she says she has not seen this in any of the other litters from these parents. Within Kato's litter are 7 pups total. 3 Black & White, 3 Silver/Grey and 1 Red & White. Kato is the only one of the 3 black & whites to change color and not gain an adult coat.

Go ahead and grab some pics. Maybe your friend will be able to shed some light on this. And I hear you about not thinking its the same dog, the M in his mask is the only part that still looks like his baby coloring lol
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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 6:56 pm

I'm looking at the colour of the last picture in your first post - the close up of her face.  
If you take one hair, is it the same colour from end to end.  With the black points and the high red colour, I'm wondering if we're seeing a bright red agouti?

There is a discussion on Husky-Owners where Lindsay has a red (with red points) but the hairs are banded so it would appear to be an agouti.
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TwisterII
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Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 7:12 pm

I have heard of eukanuba doing this. Some lab owners have complained about it but usually they shed the coat before it gets this widespread. Anemia can cause it too I believe. How's the skin beneath look?

_________________
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Egwab0VComplete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Egwam5Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat N37SqqdComplete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat N37Sm5Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat XcwxC0CComplete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Xcwxm5
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 8:40 pm

I believe you may have a sable. AKA black nosed red. At least I read that somewhere. I'll see if I can get husky mom to comment.
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 9:46 pm

So.  I'm totally off the mark.  Husky mom responded to my FB query.

"Cushings, diet and/or extreme sun damage....black/whites don't magically turn red"
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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 10:48 pm

Amy, I had a comment I didn't save that agreed with the Sable suggestion.  Disagreeing with HuskyMom is apt to land me in trouble but I have to disagree.

The possibility of it being Cushing - I think the OP would have commented if the symptoms of Cushings were apparent.  WebMD has a pretty good description of Cushings for the OP to consider - but I wouldn't think so.  It would (I had to go check this) be unusual for Cushing to occur in a pup this young, normally more toward 5 years and up from what I've seen.

Diet - I can't see diet having this drastic a change.  People who show their dogs, for example, will feed carrots (literally feed carrots rather than as a snack) and the effect is an increase in "brilliance", they add a natural gloss similar to oils without the oily feel.  
I had to look at several references to the suggestion that Eukanuba might be causing a colour change and every reference I found indicated a change in tone not a complete change in colour.

That leaves us with extreme sun damage, the OP has already said that the pup doesn't spend much time in the sun and simple occasional exposure wouldn't cause this degree of change.

I'm going to suggest that we go back and look at the first and second pictures (as puppies) and there's an obvious discolouration to the pup.  Looking at the last picture in the first message, it's obvious to me that there is a significant mix of colours there, a black face mask fading into a red / gold colour on the remainder of the head / body.

We already know that there can be significant colour change from puppy to adult.  The apparent dead black in the new born pic has faded to a less dense black in the 10 week picture.  I have to seriously suggest that we might be looking, as you suggested, at a sable or, as I suggested, a bright red agouti.  There should be little difference between the two - a sable should have black tips on their fur while an agouti will have banded fur - it's up to the OP to now confirm / deny our suggestions.
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TwisterII
Senior
Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 11:07 pm

Do you use bleach to clean his crate? Or doggy daycare may?

_________________
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Egwab0VComplete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Egwam5Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat N37SqqdComplete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat N37Sm5Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat XcwxC0CComplete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Xcwxm5
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amymeme
Senior
Senior
amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Empty
PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyMon Aug 07, 2017 11:25 pm

Check  out follicular dysplasia! Note she also said loss of guard hairs.
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Artic_Wind
Senior
Senior
Artic_Wind

Male Join date : 2014-07-23
Location : San Diego, California

Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Empty
PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 12:16 am

Sun damage will cause the red tones in black, but sun damage always has a harsh color to it, I think it's described as "brassy". This pups coloring is actually that of a red Siberian, it looks so totally natural, I don't think bleach, or sun, or even a disease could cause the coat to look this natural. However, this is all just my opinion, no fact to it whatsoever.

That being said, there is an absolutely gorgeous Siberian on one of the properties the company I work for is in charge of, it's a military housing property, and this husky is mostly white and black, but has these same "natural red" splashing throughout his coat, it's an absolutely beautiful husky with a gorgeous coat. It's no bad breeding either, this dog is pretty much perfect in every way as far as huskies go.

This is a very interesting post! I'm very curious how it will turn out.
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HuskyMom09
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Senior
HuskyMom09

Female Join date : 2012-11-01
Location : Spokane WA

Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Empty
PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 4:24 am

Sorry, but I'm going to have to disagree.  Black and white puppies don't magically change into red and white adults.  This is not a healthy coat.  Given that healthy coat starts within, barring all medical issues have been ruled out (first instinct would be Cushings then hypothyroidism), would be dietary and environmental damage.

This would not be 'natural' or to be confused with sable, which would be evident from birth. Nor is there such a phenomenon as a 'red' agouti.


Last edited by HuskyMom09 on Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:42 am; edited 1 time in total
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http://www.keahisiberianhuskies.com
HuskyMom09
Senior
Senior
HuskyMom09

Female Join date : 2012-11-01
Location : Spokane WA

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 4:35 am

To further illustrate-  this would be a dark sable coat
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 10984510
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 13227110

The above dog as a puppy, you can see from birth this would not have been confused as a b/w-
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 30198810
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 38633510
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 39204110

A light sable coat
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 11023210

Close view you can see how the sable coat is a red/tan base to a black tip (vs a true 'red')-
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 13349010

This is in effort to illustrate Sable is not a 'red coat with black pigment'!!
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arkentect
Newborn
Newborn


Join date : 2017-08-07

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 11:03 am

Good Morning everyone

Thanks for all the replies. I'm also not convinced that this is a natural coat change. I took a closer look at his fur and can say that the red color is at the tips of the follicles, it looks like it changes to a grey the closer to the root you get. I took some close ups for you and another overall pic outside in the daylight. It was during potty time, which is the only time he stands still.

I've looked into the Cushings Disease and Hypothyroidism and he's not displaying and symptoms that would lead me to believe he has either condition. His eating hasnt changed, drinking is fine, no weight gain or loss, no muscle loss, he's definitely not sluggish, no hair loss. He's not losing hair, the guard coat just never grew in.

And I don't know if it matters, but he also doesnt shed his coat much. I've seen videos online of huskies losing their body weight in fur during the blowing season but Katos doesnt seem as drastic. He definitely doesnt shed as much on a normal day to day basis. Like I can run my hand through his fur and not have any in my hand when I pull away.

Any way here are some more pictures

this is a close up of the fur on his side, very soft fur, like a puppy still
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 20170811

These are the only "coarse" guard hairs that came in
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 20170812

Here's a close up of the back of his head where he has little white hairs
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 20170810

Another overall
Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat 20170813
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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat Empty
PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 am

Okay, I'll stand corrected re the agouti.  My understanding was that any banding on the hairs would qualify as an agouti but SHCA says that by definition:

Quote :

The guard hair is banded with black near the root and at the tip with a yellow or beige band at the center of the hair. Undercoat is very dark. Defined as the "wild color," it is most frequently seen in wild rodents

There is one discussion on Husky-Owners where the member states that her pup has banded fur, like an agouti, but the dog is also obviously a bright red in colour.  I've read a couple of other posts elsewhere (could find if anyone is interested) referring to a coat that consisted of banded hairs - distinctly different colours from base to tip but an overall red coat.
I stand corrected.

@HuskyMom09 are you basing your statement that this isn't a healthy coat solely on the colour change or do you see something in the coat that I don't? (With your experience you probably do, would you mind sharing?)

I'll continue a bit with another question. Ignoring the colour issue for the moment. It was my understanding that the top coat (guard hairs) is what determines the color of the dog. I don't see any references to the undercoat being anything other than either white or cream coloured. Is that the correct definition of the two coats? If so, how can a dog not have "guard hairs" and still have any colour?

In the last two pictures - second and third from the bottom - the long hairs (I think high on the back) don't look right for the dog and the frizzy appearance of the short white hairs look positively deformed.
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 11:36 am

Look G the follicular dysplasia. The first to go is the guard hair. Siberian Huskies are over represented. The coat becomes line puppy fur. Head and tail are at least partially spared.
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amymeme
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amymeme

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 1:16 pm

From: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canine_follicular_dysplasia

Other types of follicular dysplasia

The Siberian Husky and Alaskan Malamute have a type of follicular dysplasia that occurs between the ages of three and four months, possibly later in the Malamute. The guard hairs of the trunk are progressively lost and the coat turns reddish in color.
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 1:26 pm

This may be where the belief that coat does not grow normally after shaving comes from!

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=http://vet.uga.edu/archives/sevpac/archive/sevpac2011/65-Ellis.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwiM3IDNg8jVAhXlIJoKHUf3AxsQFggvMAI&usg=AFQjCNHuP--su2MTQZ7haOVGRpOWy-rr3w

Clinical Characteristics of Follicular
Dysplasia in Dogs
• Poor coat quality
• Changes in coat color
• Poor or no hair regrowth following clipping
• Progressive alopecia of varying severity
• Primary hairs more commonly affected
• Preferential retention of secondary hairs (undercoat)
• Trunk most commonly and most noticeably affected
• Face and distal extremities usually unaffected.
• Pattern of alopecia is grossly similar to endocrine alopecia
and alopecia X.
• Variable age of onset-usually present by 3 years
• No sex predilection reported
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arkentect
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Join date : 2017-08-07

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 1:36 pm

I think this Follicular Dysplasia might be it. This all started when he was a pup. I always thought he never got guard hairs but that seems to be what the red hair is actually. The only place he's not red is in the trunk area like the description says.

I'm assuming that there is no way to cure this or reverse the effects
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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 2:01 pm

Thank you Amy.  I had looked at follicar dysplasia but didn't see what you had written about.  I wasn't ignoring it but Occam's Razor just wasn't allowing that.  FD seems to present in several different variations and I didn't see anything that pointed it out so well as your link.

Very nicely done.  Since I must now agree with your dx, looking around the web wasn't a lot of help regarding prognosis and possible treatment.  Clinical trials in Canada seem to indicate that it's not curable and special care must be taken to avoid infection.
Referring back to the trials in Canada, treatment with melatonin - primarily for FD which result in hair loss rather than color change - seems to have been ineffective.

@amymeme you don't but may I suggest to the OP that vet confirmation of this as a probable<?> dx would need to be confirmed by biopsy.  Considering what I'm reading - that this variant of FD is primarily limited to the northern breeds the OP may need to be prepared to 'educate' the vet.

Again, considering what I've read, it seems that the affected dogs will live normal lives - barring possible infections at the hair root.

Further consideration - the OP should notify their breeder of this since it appears to have a genetic component?

@HuskyMom09 I wasn't trying to be argumentative but as I said to Amy, I was looking for the simplest solution - however unusual - and stretching more than a bit. Sorry if my post was misleading ....
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 2:23 pm

The first time around, i missed about the guard hairs being sparse and missing. I was just taken with how beautiful the coloration and markings were. I would love a sable. There was a beautiful sable on petfinder near us but we weren't really thinking of 2nd dog at that point.

Yes, do believe biopsy is in order. Mostly to rule out anything endocrinologically based and treatable.

I do find it interesting about hair regrowth after trimming, shaving as it is something people say about northern breeds but not valid in my experience and not plausible in normal biology. Now makes perfect sense for a subset of northern breeds.

Hopefully, this dog won't progress to full alopecia and will retain his pretty coloration.
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MiyasMomma
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MiyasMomma

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 2:58 pm

Husky mom was the breeder I was referring to in my post, glad she came on to say this is not a normal coat. Figured as much, a red will have red eyeliner, this dog should be a black and white, not a red. I would give the info Amy presented to the vet and see what the vet thinks I wish you luck OP.
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Huskyluv
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Huskyluv

Female Join date : 2009-06-23
Location : Huntsville, AL

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PostSubject: Re: Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat   Complete Color Change and lack of Guard Coat EmptyTue Aug 08, 2017 3:36 pm

I have been silently following this thread with great interest because in my 10 years of husky forum membership, across multiple boards, I have NEVER seen anything like this before.

While I don't have anything helpful to contribute I did want to thank Lani and Amy for their helpful contributions thus far. This has even me particularly intrigued.

As for my personal opinion on the subject, I do not believe this is normal or healthy. I would be doing medical testing based on the suggestions thus far and looking for a medical diagnosis to this issue. The last thing I would do it just ignore it based on the dogs otherwise normal behavior. If the OP does pursue answers down a medical path then I hope you will keep us updated on the results/outcome/diagnosis for our own collective education/knowledge as well as keeping the breeder in the loop.

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