A forum for owners of the Siberian Husky.
 
HomeFAQSearchRegisterRegisterLog in
Congratulations Sierra and Jen B!, our December HOTM winners! HOTM - January : TBA!
Husky of the Month
Congrats Sierra and Jen B,
our December HOTM Winners!
Winter Fun!





Thanks to all for this month's entries!
Forum Rules
1. Here we prefer clarity to agreement. Obviously not everyone is going to agree on a topic; here we prefer to talk out our differences in a respectful manner to ensure mutual understanding and respect.
2. Read the Stickies and Announcements. Each sub-forum may have specific rules which trump the Forum Rules in cases where there may be conflicting information. Read the rules of each board before you post so that you are clear on the expectations of the staff.
3. Respect ALL Staff and Admins. These people volunteer of their time and MUST be respected as well as their word adhered to. They are responsible for maintaining a free, open, clear and organized forum. Anyone found to be openly undermining any official ruling by a staff member will be warned.
4. Signatures: One picture only and no links. Images: To keep the forum looking neat and tidy, we ask that members insert just one picture only in their signatures. The picture should be no more than 200x500 pixels and should be of an appropriate subject, for example, your dogs and their names. Should you need assistance creating an appropriate signature, please PM an Admin and we would be happy to help! This is to ensure that signatures remain a welcome addition to our forum instead of a cumbersome distraction. Links: Hyperlinks in signatures--unless to a personal blog or photo stream of your dogs (like Flckr or Piscasa, for example)--are strictly prohibited. Please PM a staff member with any questions or concerns regarding this rule.
Rescue Spotlight
Our current rescue spotlight is:

Texas Sled Dog Rescue!

Top Dog Website Award Winner!

Top Website
for
Siberian

Huskys


Share | .
 

 Divergence between show lines and working lines?

View previous topic View next topic Go down 
AuthorMessage
MartianHusky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Male Join date : 2016-05-29

PostSubject: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Tue Nov 14, 2017 6:06 pm

Anybody know if Siberian Huskies have differences between the working lines and show lines that are prevalent in other working breeds?

Back to top Go down
TwisterII
Senior
Senior
avatar

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Tue Nov 14, 2017 7:46 pm

The one that probably knows this will be lani. @HuskyMom09 shows and races her dogs. She's seen both sides of things. I imagine that they do. Temperament comes to mind to me. A working German Shepherd requires a different drive than a show dog. I think you will see the same in huskies. Physical differences I feel falls in the beliefs of the kennel. The show world has warped the looks of so many breeds making a larger gap between show dogs and actual worked dogs which I find sad. Many show huskies would fall apart on a sled team and many race dogs would lose it standing still in the ring. It takes a lot of balance to establish a program that can do both with the same dogs. Malamutes and German Shepherds are the only right off the top of my head that I can think off you would see the most noticeable difference in.

_________________
Back to top Go down
Artic_Wind
Senior
Senior
avatar

Male Join date : 2014-07-23
Location : San Diego, California

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:53 pm

I don't know if it will help you any, but in here, in the reference library section, there is a thread that has a very interesting discussion on the different lines of the Siberian Husky...show/working/racing and old line. I'm sorry but I don't know how to link the thread from my iPad, but the post is titled something to the affect of "Different lines of the Siberian Husky" and again, is in the reference/library section on this site. It's an interesting read nonetheless.

It is in the sticky section

"Breed types: different lines of the Siberian Husky"
Back to top Go down
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Thu Nov 16, 2017 9:58 pm

The short answer to this question is yes! And it has been written about and discussed extensively over the years. There are sections in the old International Siberian Husky Club's book: The Siberian Husky, 3rd edition which have excellent coverage of this topic which are far more informative than anything I or probably anyone else can write here in a short response. So if you can get your hands on one of these it is very informative and has articles written from different perspectives by different authors. This title is out of print but keep your eyes open and you may be able to pick one up!

But in short yes in North America there are lines of Siberian Husky that are bred for the Canadian Kennel Club or American Kennel Club show ring. These lines are maintained by breeders who are focused on taking their breeding stock to the conformation ring to compete against one another based on their consistency with the written standard for the breed. They are judged based on their structure, gait and "type", typically evaluated through a brief evaluation by a judge of the dog standing as well as trotting back and forth and around so that the trotting gait may be observed from all angles.

There are other lines that are almost never "shown" but are bred for performance as racing dogs, working tour dogs or a recreational companions. Breeding stock for these dogs are evaluated by their individual breeder/mushers based upon their performance on the trail as well as other factors determined by the breeder/musher. Racing siberian huskies may compete in sprint, mid distance or distance events.

There are a few kennels that do both. These breeder/mushers exhibit their dogs both in the conformation ring and may compete in races, everything from sprint to distance.

Probably in North America of these different "types" so to speak the vast majority are "show" only kennels. The number of pure working lines has declined gradually over the years though there are still quite a number of fine representatives of these dogs/kennels out there.
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
MartianHusky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Male Join date : 2016-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:40 pm

dashingsibe,

Thanks for the tip on the book, International Siberian Husky Club's book: The Siberian Husky, 3rd edition. Unfortunately, the book is out of print and I believe this edition was printed back in 1994. I am surprised no newer editions have come out.

If anyone has this book and wants to scan to PDF and email to me I would be willing to pay for the costs. Thanks
Back to top Go down
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:55 pm

Yes as I said this book is out of print, as the ISHC as an organization no longer exists, which is unfortunate as it contributed much the fancy as a whole. But keep your eyes open as you may find some used copies may come available...Or as you suggest perhaps someone might scan. If you are on other social media such as facebook and groups there you might post that you are looking for a copy...and see what you might find.
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
Misty Mia Husky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-09-19
Location : Indiana

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Fri Nov 17, 2017 3:28 pm

It seems to be fairly consistent that the more popular the breed, the more likely of there being a difference between show and working versions of the breed. GSDs and Huskies definitely display this difference, and not surprisingly since both breeds have been very popular for a long time. It's one of many reasons why some dog breeders hope and pray that their breeds NEVER become popular. I should probably also note that this is a global issue with all multi-breed kennel clubs -- It isn't just a North America issue.
Back to top Go down
MartianHusky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Male Join date : 2016-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:01 pm

@Misty Mia Husky wrote:
It seems to be fairly consistent that the more popular the breed, the more likely of there being a difference between show and working versions of the breed.  GSDs and Huskies definitely display this difference, and not surprisingly since both breeds have been very popular for a long time.  It's one of many reasons why some dog breeders hope and pray that their breeds NEVER become popular.  I should probably also note that this is a global issue with all multi-breed kennel clubs -- It isn't just a North America issue.

I think it's horrible how the show lines have diverted and turned some breeds like the GSD into mutants with frog legs. I think an alternative to the AKC needs to be formed that focuses on function, because the best beauty is when form follows function.

I am curious about which specific conformation traits for the AKC husky standard would impede their ability to work as efficiently as strict working lines.
Back to top Go down
MiyasMomma
Senior
Senior
avatar

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:28 pm

I don't know if this is helpful or not http://www.shca.org/shcahp2c.htm in reality all working dogs and show line dogs should be one and the same. They should meet conformational traits as well as be able to function at their job they were bred to do. Huskymom does breed for the ring as well as for the harness. Gsd's well, FCI had issued a statement last year that the gsd must conform to the standards set forth from the breed club, hopefully we shall see a better gsd winning in the ring that can work. Labs are also a split breed between show and working. Luckily for me my gsd, her sire does IPO, works and has also won n the ring, so it's happening. This blog may be of interest as well, it is not specific to huskies (don't think they are even listed), but it gives one a better understanding of how breeding has changed some breeds of dogs dramatically over the years. https://dogbehaviorscience.wordpress.com/2013/07/01/100-years-of-breed-improvement-pictures-only/
Back to top Go down
MiyasMomma
Senior
Senior
avatar

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:30 pm

Back to top Go down
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Fri Nov 17, 2017 11:59 pm

I think the answer here lies not in some grand conspiracy but just the fact that people are working their dogs they gain an understanding of the characteristics required for a dog to be a good working sled dog. If you are not involved very actively with working dogs then you simply are not going to have that detailed knowledge of the traits that those who do work their dogs state are beneficial and they may not make any sense to you. Probably the vast majority of people who exhibit dogs in conformation shows do not have time or ability to work their dogs in harness very often. That takes a considerable commitment of time and energy. The work required just for them to get championships on their dogs is daunting enough. It's alot of work...and money. They also develop an image and type for the dogs they breed that they prefer. It happens and it has happened in many many breeds. We are not going to change it. So while many want the show dog and working or sporting dog to be one, I don't see it happening.

For me this is an old argument that has been going on for a long time. I know what I like. My focus is on working sled dogs and my kennel reflects that. The dogs reflect that. It doesn't mean my dogs are better, or worse it is what it is.
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
MartianHusky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Male Join date : 2016-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:09 am

@dashingsibe wrote:
I think the answer here lies not in some grand conspiracy but just the fact that people are working their dogs they gain an understanding of the characteristics required for a dog to be a good working sled dog.  If you are not involved very actively with working dogs then you simply are not going to have that detailed knowledge of the traits that those who do work their dogs state are beneficial and they may not make any sense to you.   Probably the vast majority of people who exhibit dogs in conformation shows do not have time or ability to work their dogs in harness very often. That takes a considerable commitment of time and energy.  The work required just for them to get championships on their dogs is daunting enough.   It's alot of work...and money. They also develop an image and type for the dogs they breed that they prefer.   It happens and it has happened in many many breeds.  We are not going to change it.  So while many want the show dog and working or sporting dog to be one, I don't see it happening.

For me this is an old argument that has been going on for a long time.  I know what I like. My focus is on working sled dogs and my kennel reflects that. The dogs reflect that.  It doesn't mean my dogs are better, or worse it is what it is.  

Well I know in the GSD community, people would beg to differ. People who work their dogs take complete aim at the show dog community for diluting the lines as well as damaging the sport of Schutzhund. In the end, greed and superficiality destroyed the German Shepard breed as a whole, although there are pockets (mostly eastern european lines) that have kept their working lines pure.

What are main traits you like to see in working Siberian vs. what you commonly see in show lines?

Thanks
Back to top Go down
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:49 pm

Again I personally don't want to get into one vs other, the whole "division of the breed". I can tell you what I look for. Much is in the standard. A moderate sized dog. A dog has excellent endurance and can cover many miles effortlessly. A dog that has a powerful flowing gait will more readily be able to cover many miles effortlessly. I look for balance throughout the dog, balanced angulation front and rear. I don't look for extremes. A dog with a straighter front and a very angulated rear will not move as effortlessly as one that is balanced front to rear. The standard currently calls for a level topline. It once called for a slight (emphasis on slight) arch over the loins. I look for that. That facilitates a smooth lope and gallop, less choppy. Not the only thing that does but it is one thing. I like to see moderately sloping croup, that is something else that helps to facilitate a smooth lope and gallop. I lean away from either a flatter croup or a real strongly angled croup. Flatter croup can lead to a "flashier" looking trot but not an efficient one. But on the other end a croup that is too angled can lead to a dog that is more likely to cross over front to rear and restrict rear extension at a trot.

I am driving a Siberian team and I love Siberians and I do like a dog that has a nice wedge shaped head, prick ears, almond shaped eyes. Dogs don't run with their heads BUT they don't need a large clunky head to carry around either Smile. The standard goes into great depth on what to look for in the head. I probably give that a little less focus than some other things but I still like a pretty dog Smile. But my definition of "pretty" might differ from others.

I want to see a dog with a strong inclination to work in harness. They will have a natural inclination to lean into their harness from the start. I want to see a dog that loves to run so much that running IS the reward. That makes training so much easier. If the dog loves to run so much that getting to go is its own reward, then that makes it pretty easy to shape behaviors to create a strong, forward focused athlete in harness. I also look for a dog that loves to run but has the ability to control that drive. I don't like dogs that are so excited to go that they start biting lines, each other, handlers etc. That is in part a training issue, and in part the makeup of the dog. I call it staying centered, maintaining a forward focus.

There are some excellent articles out there that have been written by Siberian Husky Mushers over the years. If I get a chance I share some.
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Sat Nov 18, 2017 7:53 pm

You can find some pretty interesting discussions on the Sled Dog Central Forum, purebreds topic. While there is not the traffic on those forums anymore there is some excellent material that is still contained there.

this link is to an article written by Leigh Gilchrist (Lokiboden Siberians) that discusses skeletal efficiency. The article also includes some images of other sled dogs but there is much there to apply to the Siberian Husky Sled Dog.

http://www.sleddog.com/sleddog/ezine/pdf/bones.pdf
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
MartianHusky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Male Join date : 2016-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Sun Nov 19, 2017 12:58 am

Jill,

That is very good information. I will need some time to digest and research some of the definitions of those terms. Smile

Do you kennel your sibes when not working them or do you have some live inside the house with you? I was wondering how you balance the two if you do the latter? Do you also take some of your sibes out on walks? How is their recall off leash?
Back to top Go down
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Sun Nov 19, 2017 1:25 pm

We have 23 dogs here, 20 of them are housed in our kennel. We have two seniors and a Swedish Valhund who live with us in the house. Others may come in for an evening from the kennel from time to time. The kennel is pretty self contained and has four 1/2 acre exercise yards around it and our dogs when not training that day spend 2 hours (an hour in the am and an hour in the pm) out in them each day. We train on wheeled rigs or sled from September through April three to 4 times a week. They have the other months "off".

My hiking companion is my little Swedish Vallhund. I don't take my Sibes off leash except as pups when they will stay with me. I use that period for some behavior shaping. I would not take any of my sibes on purpose off leash (another topic).
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
MartianHusky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Male Join date : 2016-05-29

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:59 am

Jill,

Cool. The reason why I asked is that I am curious how some mushers s and choose to have some their sibes or all of them (don't know how that would work) also be pet dogs. I know these mushers are probably the minority, but they must exist. The management issue of how mushers are able to live with their working dogs in their house interests me. I am wondering what steps they take to cap the drive in the house without having it suppressing some of their working drive.

Maybe there will be always a bit of a tradeoff in drive for handlers who choose to have their working dogs live with them vs. being kenneled?
Back to top Go down
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:24 pm

My working dogs are quite calm when not in harness. Many dogs from their lines live lives as pets and recreational sled dogs with their owners in their homes. We simply do not want to live with 23 dogs in the house at one time LOL! Three dogs in the house is fine for us with a fourth coming in on occasion.
They do as I mentioned come in from time to time trading off so each of them get some house time for an evening. So it is not particularly difficult to live with these dogs at all. I can' say that all working siberian husky lines are like this but we have dogs from three different lines in our kennel and they are all excellent in the house.
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
Misty Mia Husky
Puppy
Puppy
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-09-19
Location : Indiana

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Wed Nov 22, 2017 2:40 pm

>>We simply do not want to live with 23 dogs in the house at one time LOL!<<

Can't blame you there! Laughing Sounds like you have a great system established with your dogs. How do your Huskies get along with your Vallhund? Does the Vallhund rule the roost? I love Vallhunds.


Back to top Go down
dashingsibe
Newborn
Newborn
avatar

Female Join date : 2017-03-22
Location : Athol,Idaho

PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   Wed Nov 22, 2017 3:31 pm

We had to watch some of our siberians in the beginning when interacting with Maja yes. But once they got to know her AND realized yes she is a dog they are fine. Yes the valhund rules the roost!!!!
Back to top Go down
http://www.dashingkennel.com
Sponsored content




PostSubject: Re: Divergence between show lines and working lines?   

Back to top Go down
 

Divergence between show lines and working lines?

View previous topic View next topic Back to top 
Page 1 of 1

 Similar topics

-
» Breed Types: Different Lines of the Siberian Husky
» Signature lines
» what are the white swirly lines on eggplant leaves
» Tighten your guy lines, hold on to your hat...
» E.C.C.C. Show Results 2011

Permissions in this forum:You cannot reply to topics in this forum
It's a Husky Thing - Siberian Husky Forum :: Community :: Working Dogs-