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 Chinese Food Therapy

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Rumflower
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PostSubject: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 2:18 pm

Hi everyone! I was trying to find a vet that specializes in nutrition for sir dog. There was only one near me that I could find and the place seems...uhh.. I wanted to get some more opinions on it before I blow money on a potential quack, to be blunt.

It is a holistic vet that focuses on acupuncture and Chinese food therapy. I did some research and the Chinese food therapy seems...uhh... scratch I'm not sure what to make of it. What are y'alls experiences with this? Has anyone had luck with it? Is it as questionable as I'm thinking or are there real results? Should I expand my search to outside of the area to find a vet with more experience in nutrition that isn't quite so...unique?

Thanks!
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aljones
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:09 pm

From a quick look around the web I presume you're referring to Dr Sandi?

While it's an interesting web site and I, by no means, am antagonistic toward holistic medicine - personally I think I'd prefer a vet with a more 'normal' (for lack of a better word) regimen.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:27 pm

I have heard of it and some people swear by it. But it can be a lot of work for nothing if there isn't really a specific reason to go about it the way chinese medicine sets it up. I haven't tried it myself and I don't necessarily see why it would work, but I do think finding a good nutritionist if you are having issues with diet is a good thing, but I would probably lean away from someone who is going to try to potentially push just the chinese method and not just a solid canine specific and appropriate diet. I feed mostly raw and have seen the benefits of that but going to a level where I'm keeping track of hot and cold and this and that for dogs that don't have a specific reason to I don't see the point. If you can find a good pet nutritionist I would do so. Or look closer at this one as to their credentials and beliefs. You don't want to wind up with a nutritionist who believes in chinese medicine but hasn't done the research into how to balance that for dogs rather than humans. The same as you don't want a nutritionist who is just going to try to help you find the right formula of hill science diet.

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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 3:55 pm

Google this gentleman - Doug Knueven, DVM

He is a Holistic Vet who believes that a healthy, balanced, nutritional approach, along with modern medicine yields a better outcome in his patients.

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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:03 pm

@TwisterII wrote:
I have heard of it and some people swear by it. But it can be a lot of work for nothing if there isn't really a specific reason to go about it the way chinese medicine sets it up. I haven't tried it myself and I don't necessarily see why it would work, but I do think finding a good nutritionist if you are having issues with diet is a good thing, but I would probably lean away from someone who is going to try to potentially push just the chinese method and not just a solid canine specific and appropriate diet. I feed mostly raw and have seen the benefits of that but going to a level where I'm keeping track of hot and cold and this and that for dogs that don't have a specific reason to I don't see the point. If you can find a good pet nutritionist I would do so. Or look closer at this one as to their credentials and beliefs. You don't want to wind up with a nutritionist who believes in chinese medicine but hasn't done the research into how to balance that for dogs rather than humans. The same as you don't want a nutritionist who is just going to try to help you find the right formula of hill science diet.

Ugh this! It seems like every vets office in KC hustles the science diet. It's so hard to find a vet that actually wants to talk about nutrition. I'm not turning up any, which is why I'm actually tossing around the idea of doing this suspicious stuff, lol.

The thing is, Loki doodle had a seizure the other day. Rushed him to the evet, who did some blood work, couldnt find anything wrong with him, and gave us a referral. We have an appointment with the only neurology specialist in the area, but it ain't until January. I did some research and read up on this site, found that sometimes a vitamin deficiency can cause it and supplements can help prevent, but I didnt want to start messing with his diet or giving him supplements without talking to a veterinarian. Therefore, we are in this screwy situation. I know I should probably just wait and see what neurovet says, but it's so far away timewise and the constant worry about him having another seizure is exhausting. I feel like I need to be doing something but I'm deathly afraid of doing something without a professional's guidance and screwing something up.

Ugh. End rant.
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TwisterII
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 5:17 pm

In his case I probably would wait and see. If all else clears then I would go see a holistic vet or a nutritionist. It never hurts to go talk to the people and feel them out. Talk is cheap. In the end you can always go home and verify what they say and make a decision from there. Have you been looking at just traditional homemade dog food either following PMR or BARF any? Chinese medicine is basically BARF from what I can tell, just with an emphasis on food pairings. I don't think you can really go wrong with it, but you could also pay for something that could have been done with basic BARF research at home. A well balanced PMR or BARF diet shouldn't need any supplementation unless there is something specific that he isn't absorbing properly. A standard vet should have the tools to be able to find out if he has a vitamin deficiency and then a diet can be formulated from there according to a more natural diet that isn't science diet.

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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:07 pm

@TwisterII wrote:
In his case I probably would wait and see. If all else clears then I would go see a holistic vet or a nutritionist. It never hurts to go talk to the people and feel them out. Talk is cheap. In the end you can always go home and verify what they say and make a decision from there. Have you been looking at just traditional homemade dog food either following PMR or BARF any? Chinese medicine is basically BARF from what I can tell, just with an emphasis on food pairings. I don't think you can really go wrong with it, but you could also pay for something that could have been done with basic BARF research at home. A well balanced PMR or BARF diet shouldn't need any supplementation unless there is something specific that he isn't absorbing properly. A standard vet should have the tools to be able to find out if he has a vitamin deficiency and then a diet can be formulated from there according to a more natural diet that isn't science diet.

Thank you, this is good advice. You're right I should wait, it's going to be a bit of a challenge to wait twiddling my thumbs for a month, lol. If I don't get answers from them I think just making a consultation appointment is a good idea like you said. Certainly couldn't hurt nothing.

I binge read all the resources in the raw feeding sticky last night, which is what prompted me to want to see a vet and give it a try. There is so much research on it on here that there probably isn't much she could say that I couldn't find on my own, but my fatal flaw is insecurity and indecisiveness. I know I'm a weirdo.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:17 pm

@aljones wrote:
From a quick look around the web I presume you're referring to Dr Sandi?  

While it's an interesting web site and I, by no means, am antagonistic toward holistic medicine - personally I think I'd prefer a vet with a more 'normal' (for lack of a better word) regimen.

Omg I'm going to die lol! I didn't even see that one. To think the only two canine nutritionist vets in KC do this same thing! Oh gosh I needed that laugh.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 6:43 pm

Danielle, did the e-vet suggest looking into possible reasons for the seizure? Besides getting an MRI? Did the vet run an MDR1 test on Loki? Have you changed flea/tick or heartworm meds? Has Loki been recently vaccinated? I may would want to discuss this with your current more traditional vet as well. Dr. Dodds, I do believe has some protocols for nutrition for seizure prone dogs, but even in her case I don't 100% buy into what she recommends. Like Jenn mentioned I think I would hold off on the holistic vet, until you get more answers from the more traditional side. I have read some and many agree in some of the dog food groups I am in on avoiding rosemary, so as far as Loki's food and treats I may make sure rosemary is not in anything, just in case.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Fri Dec 15, 2017 7:52 pm

@MiyasMomma wrote:
Danielle, did the e-vet suggest looking into possible reasons for the seizure? Besides getting an MRI? Did the vet run an MDR1 test on Loki? Have you changed flea/tick or heartworm meds? Has Loki been recently vaccinated? I may would want to discuss this with your current more traditional vet as well. Dr. Dodds, I do believe has some protocols for nutrition for seizure prone dogs, but even in her case I don't 100% buy into what she recommends. Like Jenn mentioned I think I would hold off on the holistic vet, until you get more answers from the more traditional side. I have read some and many agree in some of the dog food groups I am in on avoiding rosemary, so as far as Loki's food and treats I may make sure rosemary is not in anything, just in case.

Thanks, Renee. I saw that about the rosemary and was pretty surprised. Who would've thought? He is currently on just TOTW.

Honestly, I am not thrilled with the evet. It seemed like he just ran the blood test and shooed us out the door. Couldn't be bothered to explain the results to us beyond they "looked good." Told us to call this neurologist and not to bother to come back if he has another seizure. Suspect i asked him what could have caused this and he said "anything." whatever, I said. Hopefully the neurologist will be more helpful. I am also not super pleased with his regular vet after an incident with the other dog where she said something one day, then the next week pretended she said something completely different, so I am considering switching vets. Getting gaslighted by your vet is pretty sad I think. Everything is a mess, lol.

But on to the trouble shooting. He has not had any flea meds for a few months now. His heartworm is heartguard plus and he had it on the 8th and the seizure on the 12th. It's the same brand he's been on since I got him, so I'm not sure if that could still be responsible. Is it possible to develop a new reaction like that? His next dose is due before the neurology appointment so I wonder if i should skip it? His vaccinations were last March.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:26 am

Danielle, it's nice to see you again, sorry Loki had a seizure. I don't have advice for you on the food, when my last two huskies seizured, I too thought maybe food was an issue cuz they would often go to a certain spot in the yard and kinda just lick/eat the soil, not like seriously munching on it, it's hard to explain but in reading about it, the cause could have been one of two things...not feeling well, or a mineral deficiency. Anyways, good luck on the food part, I have read success stories of seizuring dogs going seizure free after being taken off kibble and put on home prepared meals.

My main reason for posting is in regards to your evet. With the blood tests, it's pretty standard that if the tests come back "normal", there is not a lot more they can do. I know, it's frustrating. Unless Loki has another seizure, it really could be "anything". Snail baits and insecticides are really big culprits a lot of the time. With that being said, don't bring Loki back to that vet should he have another seizure. The fact he said don't bring him back if he has another seizure is mind blowing. For many reasons. One important one is that should Loki seizure again, they will give you the option of more extensive blood tests, the one Loki already had is pretty basic, there are atleast two other blood tests that get more intensive to find out likely culprits, or rule them out. They would also probably want to keep Loki for a little while, observe him/watch for more seizures to better figure things out. Besides all that, no one can predict if the next seizure is going to be that one that is a matter of life and death so for them to say don't bother bringing him back, just blows my mind, I'd stay as far away from that vet as possible.

While it's still fresh in your mind, I'd write down everything that happened the day Loki seizured, from things that were routine, to things that may have been out of the ordinary. It may help in the future (should Loki seizure again) in trying to figure out and things that may have contributed to the seizure.

Good luck Danielle, hopefully this was a one time thing. Please keep us posted.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Sat Dec 16, 2017 11:38 am

@Artic_Wind wrote:
Danielle, it's nice to see you again, sorry Loki had a seizure. I don't have advice for you on the food, when my last two huskies seizured, I too thought maybe food was an issue cuz they would often go to a certain spot in the yard and kinda just lick/eat the soil, not like seriously munching on it, it's hard to explain but in reading about it, the cause could have been one of two things...not feeling well, or a mineral deficiency. Anyways, good luck on the food part, I have read success stories of seizuring dogs going seizure free after being taken off kibble and put on home prepared meals.

My main reason for posting is in regards to your evet. With the blood tests, it's pretty standard that if the tests come back "normal", there is not a lot more they can do. I know, it's frustrating. Unless Loki has another seizure, it really could be "anything". Snail baits and insecticides are really big culprits a lot of the time. With that being said, don't bring Loki back to that vet should he have another seizure. The fact he said don't bring him back if he has another seizure is mind blowing. For many reasons. One important one is that should Loki seizure again, they will give you the option of more extensive blood tests, the one Loki already had is pretty basic, there are atleast two other blood tests that get more intensive to find out likely culprits, or rule them out. They would also probably want to keep Loki for a little while, observe him/watch for more seizures to better figure things out. Besides all that, no one can predict if the next seizure is going to be that one that is a matter of life and death so for them to say don't bother bringing him back, just blows my mind, I'd stay as far away from that vet as possible.

While it's still fresh in your mind, I'd write down everything that happened the day Loki seizured, from things that were routine, to things that may have been out of the ordinary. It may help in the future (should Loki seizure again) in trying to figure out and things that may have contributed to the seizure.

Good luck Danielle, hopefully this was a one time thing. Please keep us posted.

Thanks, Jimmy. I'm so sorry you had to go through that, too. It's really terrifying to feel so helpless I wish these things didn't happen. Sad I am definitely going to request a different vet if we ever go in again. I've been reading up on "first aid" and there is so much contradictory info out there it would sure have been nice for the vet to talk to us about it a little more.

I feel a little better knowing that there are success stories. If a diet change could prevent this from happening again I would be so happy. If not, at least I'll know I tried, ya know?

The log is a really good idea. One thing does stand out to me as unusual. He normally wakes me up at 600 (like clockwork) to let him outside so that he can lay down out there and refuse to come in. That day, 730 rolled around and I had to wake him up to go out. Once he was up, he was his usual self, but it's odd that he slept in like that. Evet said that it was just a coincidence because there are no warning signs. Now I'm thinking it might have been more significant than he thought though.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Sat Dec 16, 2017 1:18 pm

Thanks Danielle. Three different times with 3 different dogs, I actually contemplated not getting another dog after Anuschka passed away thinking it might have been something at the house that was causing it. That's the problem with seizures though, too many possibilities as to cause. I posted an article that I found on a Malamute site that has a list of possible seizure triggers that is just overwhelming, in Erica's thread on her Loki having seizures. (eander83) there is a lot of good information in it if you want to read it. I'd link it but don't know how.

That vet was wrong. There ARE warning signs to seizures, so id definitely jot down stuff like sleeping in that day. ANYTHING unusual or out of the ordinary should be noted, no matter how insignificant it seems. Sleeping in makes me wonder if you might want to jot down things from the day before as well. Like, did Loki play extra hard, if so, was it at a dog park, while at the dog park did he munch on some grass or something (just examples) ...that might tell you things like finding out if that grass had been treated with anything recently, like insecticides/weed killers/fungicides. Ok, back to warning signs, they can be so subtle you might not even notice, they can happen a minute before a seizure or a week before a seizure, so they're definitely hard to notice most of the time, but seizures have phases (I don't remember the name of each phase ) and warning signs are in that pre-seizure phase. Most of the time, it's just things like your dog somewhat secluding themselves, wanting to be alone more, or "hiding" out more. Often, my last boy husky, Malukhai, would go to the spare bedroom (blinds are almost always shut so it's fairly dark and of course, quiet, in there, in a timeframe before a seizure struck. With him it had become more on a schedule as well, he seemed to seizure once every 3 months, and always seizured within a week of a time change (he passed away within a few days of our Spring time change, daylight savings) in the 3 years he seizured, he also always seizured on December 21st, winter Soltice. All these weird coincidences I found out by keeping a journal so it definitely helps.

As to first aid. Most important thing to do is to keep Loki safe, make sure there is nothing around him he can hurt himself on. A myth is that a dog in a seizure can swallow it's tongue so people try to keep that from happening by sticking their fingers in the dogs mouth. Don't ever do that. A dog in a seizure can lock its jaws and with your fingers in its mouth, it's not pretty. Dogs won't choke on their tongues. You just keep them safe by making sure the area around them is clear. ...Watch the time as best you can, anything over 5-10 minutes or so and you want to get them to the closest vet, fast, the dog is not breathing during a seizure so the longer they are not receiving oxygen, the more damage to internal organs, kidneys shut down, heart stops, etc. 30 minutes after a seizure starts and things are not good for the dogs chances at survival. My girl, Anuschka, her heart stopped at the evet. Malukhai, his heart stopped here at home, right in front of me. I had been in the shower when his seizure started, so too much time had passed Sad Anyways, since a seizuring dog isn't breathing, their body overheats, that's what leads to organ failure, I have read to have things on hand, like ice packs, bags of frozen vegetables, things like that, to have available to help control the overheating. I can't say whether it helps or not, but hey, if it's there, why not use it. After putting Anuschka in the car to go to the evet, I ran back and grabbed bags of frozen vegetables and the one ice pack I happened to have and put them on her during her ride to the vet. Also, after she passed away at the vet, they did need to dry her off before bringing her out to me, so I'm assuming they put her in cool water like a tub or something, to bring down her temperature. I'd say the most important first aid though, is just keeping Loki safe during the seizure itself.

As I said before, hopefully with Loki, this was a one time thing <positive thoughts> but it helps to have some information should it ever happen again. I stayed up nights on end reading everything I could on seizures. I love Kohdi and Mishka to death, but I wish more than anything I could have kept Malukhai and Anuschka (and Blitz) alive, they'd still be with me today if they would have lived their average lifespan.

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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:09 pm

Jimmy, I know you know more about seizures than most of us. I do remember you mentioning yogurt after they seized. It may be helpful for Danielle on what she can give to Loki after a seizure or keep on hand just in case. I believe you mentioned that their blood sugar goes down after one?
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Sat Dec 16, 2017 5:12 pm

Danielle, keep us posted on Loki, so sorry y'all are going thru this. TOTW is one of very few kibbles out there that does not contain rosemary, it is very difficult to find a decent food with out it, so perhaps for the time being, until you figure how you want to feed, keep him on it.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Sat Dec 16, 2017 6:45 pm

@MiyasMomma wrote:
Jimmy, I know you know more about seizures than most of us. I do remember you mentioning yogurt after they seized. It may be helpful for Danielle on what she can give to Loki after a seizure or keep on hand just in case. I believe you mentioned that their blood sugar goes down after one?


Yes, Renee, thanks for remembering that. Having vanilla ice cream (all natural) or vanilla yogurt on hand helps after a seizure. I found this to be very true as well. A seizure takes a tremendous amount of energy from the dog, causing all kinds of metabolic changes in the body, and from what I've read, blood sugars can drop significantly, or spike. What I honestly don't know is if the vanilla yogurt helps with all seizures, or just seizures related to diabetes. With Malukhai, Anuschka and Blitz, the seizures were not related to diabetes and atleast with Malukhai, I actually saw firsthand that it helped him. Having all natural vanilla ice cream, or vanilla yogurt (none of the diet stuff with artificial sweeteners) is helpful in my opinion. In Malukhai, it was during a seizure, the last seizure he had before the one that took his life 4 months later, it was his worst, he would seizure, come out of it, be fine, go into another seizure. Took him to the vet immediately, they examined him, nothing they could do, took him home and he seizured as soon as we walked in the door, then another, and another. I gave him vanilla yogurt after he came out of it, he practically ate the spoon he was so hungry! No lie! I kept feeding it and sure enough, that was it for his seizures. I had already started a regimen of feeding yogurt to both he and Anuschka beforehand, yogurt is good for dogs, so I always made sure I had it on hand and continue to do it with Kohdi and Mishka as well, even though they don't seizure, it's good for them. But it was through reading that I found out to give after a seizure, I did, so I know it helps somehow.
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PostSubject: Re: Chinese Food Therapy   Wed Dec 20, 2017 12:18 pm

Thanks y'all, I picked up a tub of yogurt the other day. Fortunately, as picky as loki doodle is, he does love yogurt lol. Again, I really appreciate y'all taking the time to share this info with me.
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