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 Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion

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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:14 am

Never give rawhide. If you ever have any doubt, watch a video on how they are made. In addition to that are the points Bev brought up, just too risky.

I was never comfortable giving mine Nylabones, just too many horror stories on them, but of course it can happen with any chew. Nylabones, even though they say non edible, some seem to break apart and get lodged in the intestines and stuff. Even those little nubs on them cause some major issues and some dogs have even broken back molars on some of the larger bones. Yet there are also many people who give their dogs Nylabones and have zero issues. The breeder I got my two from doesn't like the Nylabones so I've stayed away from them as well. (My two have had rawhide though, but I kick myself in the ass for ever giving them these)

I've been through tons of treats trying to find one that Mishka can have with no issues. So far it's been Milkbones of all things that she does ok on, go figure. I don't give her the large ones, I get the smaller "medium "size. She doesn't tolerate cow or pig ears too well, doesn't like the hooves, those Himalayen chews messed her up pretty good too. There was one treat they both just LOVE but had to be given in serious moderation...it's about two feet long and called a rabbit chew (they have other flavored too) and it's cool because you can break off a size you want to give but for Mishka I had to give super small pieces, otherwise it'd mess her up. She did ok on bully sticks as well. I have a whole bag of venison treats that she can't have, messed her up, and some salmon treats too (raw/dehydrated) What's weird is these pieces are super tiny for both, yet mess her up. And finally, I started buying these baked treats thinking they'd be awesome for her, but mess her up. I chose pumpkin recipe on top of that figuring it'd be even better for her, but nope! I can't find the ingredients for the pumpkin recipe one but here are the ingredients for the blueberry (which I also tried) so maybe someone here can tell me from the ingredients what is possibly upsetting her stomach. Not to hi jack the thread! I think the information could be helpful to all in what to look for when choosing things for stomach sensitive dogs. Here are the ingredients:

Buckwheat flour, Potato Flour, Bluberry fiber, Dried Brewers yeast, vegetable oil, Ground Rosemary, natural flavors
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Sun Jul 01, 2018 11:38 am

@Artic_Wind My guess would be buckwheat flour. I love the stuff but, it's really a grass seed, not a grain at all. It can also actually cause poisoning in some dogs: https://wagwalking.com/condition/buckwheat-poisoning

Not the best hing for dogs and, very likely the reason Mishka can't handle those treats. I wouldn't recommend giving buckwheat to a dog with digestive issues just because they may be more sensitive to the toxin in it than dogs without issues.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Sun Jul 01, 2018 3:22 pm

Thank you @bluemoods ! Interesting article! Makes me wonder about some of the dogs with skin issues that vets haven't been able to diagnose as possibly stemming from buckwheat flour. . I checked the food I give my two and buckwheat flour isn't in it, it actually has no kinds of flour. Mishka doesn't have skin issues but I'm assuming you are saying just having a sensitivity to the toxin can possibly result in stomach stress/food sensitivity?

Their food ingredients have me really perplexed as everything looks pretty darn good in it. I have no idea what the last 3 things are but they're also at the end of the list so I'm guessing there's not much of it in there. You mind taking a look at the ingredients and giving your thoughts? Please Smile

Deboned lamb, lamb meal, whole green peas, red lentils, lamb liver, lamb fat, pinto beans, chickpeas, herring oil, green lentils, whole yellow peas, lentil fiber, apples, natural lamb flavor, lamb tripe, lamb kidney, lamb cartilage, dried kelp, whole pumpkin, whole butternut squash, kale, spinach, mustard greens, collard greens, turnip greens, carrots, pears, freeze dried lamb liver, freeze dried lamb tripe, pumpkin seeds, sunflower seeds, zinc proteinate, mixed tocopherols (preservative), chicory root, turmeric, sarsaparilla root, althea root, rosehips, juniper berries, dried lactobacillus acidophilus fermentation product, dried bifidobacterium animalis fermentation product, dried lactobacillus casei fermentation product. (392 kcal per standard 8 oz cup)
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Sun Jul 01, 2018 6:49 pm

Chicory is very good, it may even help prevent intestinal worms and, is good for skin conditions, Sarsaparilla helps detoxify the blood and liver, also very good, much like garlic does for humans. In fact that is a great food EXCEPT JUNIPER BERRIES. The rest is a near ideal diet for a dog who needs a limited meat variety diet.

https://www.cuteness.com/article/juniper-berries-poisonous-dogs I wouldn't feed those in any amount, not even one to my dogs. They are in dog food as a flavoring agent and, a digestive aid but, like grapes, they are toxic to some dogs and, some handle small amounts just fine.

The last three are probiotics, same as found in lactaid and probiotic yogurts like Activa. Beneficial bacteria that almost all mammals, including humans have it their gut and, definitely things the dogs would get if they ate whole animal prey.

If it didn't have Juniper berries, I'd feed that to my dogs, but I'm not feeding them Juniper berries- that's what Gin is made from, by the way, fermented Juniper Berries.

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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:06 pm

@bluemoods thank you so much! Why would they put stuff like this in a food for dogs with sensitive stomachs in the first place, ugh, because it's a digestive aid I'm assuming. Mishka's problems started with her getting one UTI after another and now I'm poisoning her kidneys with juniper berries. On to my search thru their line for something without juniper berries, I really don't want to switch brands on her at this point. Thank you again! I'm so glad I asked you to look at the ingredients for me.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Sun Jul 01, 2018 10:37 pm

The only other recipe in the Singles line that I'd consider (besides the whole mackerel, which also has juniper berries) is the Duck and Pear. Would you mind looking the ingredients over for me and give me your thoughts, please? I looked, of course, and nothing stood out to me as being bad but I'd like your opinion. I have tried this one before, I don't remember exactly why I didn't stay with it but I *think* it was because of some wicked farts.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:04 am

@Artic_Wind wrote:
The only other recipe in the Singles line that I'd consider (besides the whole mackerel, which also has juniper berries) is the Duck and Pear. Would you mind looking the ingredients over for me and give me your thoughts, please? I looked, of course, and nothing stood out to me as being bad but I'd like your opinion. I have tried this one before, I don't remember exactly why I didn't stay with it but I *think* it was because of some wicked farts.

Looks good to me, I'd feed that to my dogs. Nothing bad in there. If it causes gas, it could use a bit of marshmallow root (althea root) to help combat that but, it's a good food.

As for potentially toxic things in dog food, for a while, SD adult had grape pomace in it - there was some legal action over that. Tapioca is used quite often in grain free foods, including the one I feed but, it can be toxic if not processed properly. (I made sure the food I feed has properly processed tapioca.)

I grew up with trained cougars (mountain lions) in our home. They were show cats for television and movies. We had to be careful about feeding them properly. Those two had to be at their best in both appearance and performance at all times. That's one reason I decided to adopt my first wolfdog and, one led to now having four of them. If I ever win the lottery, or inherit a small fortune, I'll get the permits and, open a wolfdog and northern breed rescue. Huskies and Malamutes are so much like wolves in some ways, especially in dietary needs. Not many do well being treated like your average mutt of a dog, that's a bit like trying to treat a cougar like a house cat - it just doesn't work well for them. Yet, when cared for and, trained properly, they can be the most amazing, wonderful companion animals. Fortunately our canine friends are a lot easier to train that those cougars were - even wolves train easier than those cats. Even so, same basic system, no punishment, reward the good behavior, even when the animal does something good all on its own. That means being there and paying attention to the animal as much as possible. (Even to the point of placing a treat near them if they are sleeping in the right place.)
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Mon Jul 02, 2018 12:26 am

@bluemoods thank you so much, once again. It will be their next food starting tomorrow. The one thing I dont necessarily like with the Duck and Pear is the salt, but hopefully it'll be ok for her. She is also on Cranadin supplements to help prevent UTI's so maybe it'll also help rid her of excess salts.

Your life is fascinating! I love your posts Smile

I apologize if my posts seem to hi jack this thread but I have always felt that the best thing is to ask a lot of questions to learn from others experiences and knowledge, especially when it comes to feeding our pets, I think all too often we just assume whatever is in the food, is ok when sometimes it is not. . I know I learned a lot from my posts being answered (thank you blue moods) and hope others have as well, especially the OP. These posts/topics show up in searches too so even future members can benefit from all that was discussed on huskies with sensitive stomachs. It seems to be an ever growing problem unfortunately. Out of all the Huskies I have had, Mishka is my first to have a sensitive stomach, and it's weird that it started when she was about 2, she was fine up til then.
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PostSubject: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Mon Jul 02, 2018 10:16 am

All mammals need some sodium, it helps prevent dehydration and, supports nerve and muscle function, same as it does in humans BUT, too much can lead to sodium poisoning (it would take a lot and, lack of water for the dog to do that.) Salt can be up to 0.3% of commercial dog food and, it does provide sodium, which the dog needs a little bit of, just as we do.

The food is fine, just don't feed extra salty snacks. We all love spoiling our pets but, sharing our potato chips, salted nuts and such is not the way to spoil them. A bite of raw meat or, a healthy dog treat is much better.

You ask good questions and, we can all learn how to better feed our canine friends by asking questions.

Was Mishka on a restricted diet (no chicken, no dairy, anything like that as a puppy just because that's what was available or, what the other dogs ate? She really sounds like a case of lacking the enzymes to digest certain proteins (a vet would have to do tests to confirm that.) My vet is always reminding me that, like humans, if a pet is never fed a certain food that is acceptable for the species to eat as a puppy, their ability to digest it slowly decreases until they can't digest it anymore. Milk is a great example. Young animals have the enzymes to digest milk and diary, if you keep giving them a little milk every day or every few days at least after they are weaned, they never loose those enzymes but, if you don't by six months old, dairy gives them gas at best and, upset stomach and vomiting at worst.

Of course there is no reason to keep feeding a pet dairy other than keeping them able to digest it but, the same is true of other foods as well except that foods have to be introduced in the first few months while the dog's body is in high gear to generate enzymes to cope with whatever food is available. My vet says that if the dog isn't eating it by age one year, don't ever feed it to the dog.

That's why mine get introduced to a new meat or plant that will be in their diet every few days, as long as they get okay with the last one in 3 days or less. They can have allergies and, genetic intolerance, like we can so, there might be some things they will never be able to eat but if it doesn't cause vomiting, or any skin or nasal or eye symptoms, just slightly loose stools and possibly gas, my vet says give it 3 days, six meals and see if things calm down, if they do, keep feeding it and, when all is totally normal again, add another food item. If the gas and/or loose stools go past 3 days, no more of that food. Skin, eye, nasal or vomiting - never feed that again after the first time.

I think sometimes we humans go overboard in trying to feed what's best and, get caught up in the latest trends and research on feeding dogs more than is actually good for the dogs. There have been studies that show, given their choice dogs will eat about 60% fat, 30% protein, 7% carbs and, whatever fiber for the small remainder- even grass and, that's very much how a wolf prefers to eat. That's a far cry from the low fat, by comparison, we feed dogs. (And no, don't go changing your dog's diet to have that much fat - it's an example of how we think in human terms and, forget what the animal would do if given total free choice as to what it ate.)


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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Mon Jul 02, 2018 8:37 pm

@bluemoods, thank you so much for continuing to give me your thoughts, you've been very helpful to me (and I'm sure others) already.

I'll try to keep this as brief as I can but I know it'll still read like a book, lol, but I think Mishka's food sensitivities are not typical.

Mishka was an absolutely healthy and normal puppy/dog up until she had a UTI. This means she was eating the normal foods with no reactions. As a puppy, she was brought up on Blue Freedom, it is chicken based I believe. The kibble is super small I noticed Mishka wasn't really chewing her food, just bringing it in her mouth and swallowing it, and so somewhere along the line I started mixing in what I was feeding Kohdi, and that was Natures Domain Salmon and Sweet Potato, hoping the larger kibble would get her to chew. Mishka can chew by the way, she is a pro with bones and chew treats, sticks, etc. but for whatever reason, she wasn't chewing her kibble. Both dogs also got things like browned ground beef and/or egg and/or roasted chicken in their food as well as Greek yogurt. . At a year old, I dropped the puppy food and both were eating the Natures Domain daily. I think it was in her second year that she developed a UTI. Took her meds and everything, thought she was healed, and then a month later had a second UTI. Took her meds again and again, thought she was healed only to have a third UTI a month and a half later. This one was scary, I honestly thought I was going to lose her. She had stopped eating, was throwing up and her poop were explosions of mucousy water basically. She had to go to the emergency vet and they ran X-rays and tests and she was diagnosed with gastreontitis. They kept her all day so they could get fluids and stuff back into her and sent back home with meds and all that good stuff and she recovered. I sought advice here during that same time and a few members recommended getting her on a cranberry supplement to help with recurring UTI's, which I did. First it was Cranimals, a powder that'd I'd mix with Greek yogurt, but the bags are small and would go too fast so I put her on Crandadin. It's a pill. She takes it well, and still gets it today. One member, who I think is fairly knowledgeable on foods, recommended to me I change her food as well. Something with less carbs to tax the kidneys and things like cranberry as one of the ingredients. I ended up going with Solid Gold High Protein which was a HUGE mistake. Both dogs just blew up on the stuff. I gave it two months though to really know if it'd work and ended up changing to Acana Heritage line, it was the fresh water fish I think. It was one of the fish recipes for sure. Mishka was never the same though. She went from a dog who could eat anything (by the way, she's not a fast eater at all, she's slow, so the swallowing thing wasn't from inhaling her food) to a dog that seems to be intolerable to chicken, and more recently discovering ground beef as well. She seems to also go through these 3 week intervals of being "normal" as far as being able to eat her food with no problem, to bam! Diareah and upset stomach. The intervals seem to last 3 weeks. During those 3 weeks, she is active, playing, appetite is good, etc. then the bam hits and she's not feeling good, she will still play but not for long, still go on walks but takes her time, loses her appetite and gets the diareah and sometimes the throw up. It's really strange and I can't figure it out. By the way, I don't even eat potato chips myself so the dogs don't get that, haha, but if I'm eating popcorn I have given them that. I'm not a big food person so what I eat is pretty basic, like cheeseburgers on the bbq, and I've shared that but really they haven't gotten much in the way of junk food and they are not counter surfers so they don't get into anything either.

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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:08 am

Hmm, when the diarrhea and upset stomach hit, is it soon after she gets even a bit of excess fat? (Digging back to my vet tech training, though I haven't worked in a clinic since 1990) Does she tend to have greenish, yellow poop with the diarrhea and, does it look almost greasy, or leave a greasy residue when you clean it up?

If yes to two or  more of those questions, your vet, or a specialist needs to check gall bladder function and, check for small gal stones. Cholelithiasis (gal stones) can happen in dogs but, it can often be managed with diet alone unless, the function of the gal bladder is compromised or there is a secondary infection or, excess mucous in the gal bladder due to the stones. That would explain her diet problems, bile not right, digesting food is a problem when you don't convert fats to fatty acids efficiently, all the fat can do is pass right through.

I ask because her problem meats seem to be the higher fat meats. Another indication would be boneless, skinless, trimmed of all fat chicken breast being okay, but, chicken in dog food not okay. Ground beef, again fat. Only a vet can tell you for sure, but, it might be worth asking about. It might be as simple as a low fat, high protein diet. It might not be that, but if not then, that rules out another possibility and, eliminates worries of the complications gal bladder problems can cause if not treated properly.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:47 am

At first I was going to answer "yes" to your first question, but in thinking about it, it's sporadic. Example, last nite I bar b qued and I fixed both dogs a small patty to mix in with their food and she had good poop today. The night before they also had ground beef and her poop was fine. I still give them both the ground beef because I am not positive on that meat being a problem yet, just know that certain times she's had it, ground beef was given before her distress. I do buy the leanest of ground beef, but I know it's still fatty. For awhile I thought she was ok with actual real chicken, but not ok with chicken in foods but even that is sporadic. (For quite awhile now, she gets zero chicken, not in foods, treats, or even the real thing) . It's like, sometimes she was fine with it, other times not so much, it almost seems to fall in those 3 week intervals if that makes any sense. She has had distress in between those 3 week intervals but certain things like cow ears or certain treats were what I suspected set her off. I can say when she is in distress, she sits a lot. Like she is uncomfortable. She did that with the UTI's as well.

With the diareah...the color, to me, has always been that light brown color, however, I talked to my mom (who watches them both during the day when I'm at work, and she says it's a yellowish color. I'm going to have to watch the coloring more closely the next time because my mom also sees a grey car and thinks it's brown Rolling Eyes  I'll be sure to watch that more carefully the next time. Both dogs had diareah the last time and my thoughts were mushrooms in the grass so I'm not counting that one. Also, I've never really paid attention to any greasiness to it...the house incident that I had to clean up was after the grass eating/possibly mushroom, incident and that was Kohdi, Mishka manages to get me up and let her out before she explodes. They go down in the canyon slope, it's dark, so I just hear it.

When the emergency vet did the X-rays, I do remember something being noted about the gall bladder, I even posted about it here and Amy made a comment on it, I don't remember the exact wording but something about a slight cloudiness to it or something? It had a weird word. Neither my vet, nor the emergency vet seemed concerned about it, there was only that notation on the X-ray readings where she was diagnosed with gastreontitis. I will try to look for that receipt/record later. She's so young, and was so young when she was seen, how likely is it she might have gall bladder issues? She's only 4 right now. She was 3 or 2 going on 3 when that visit occurred.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Tue Jul 03, 2018 12:00 pm

Muccocele? That's inflamed mucous glands in the gal bladder. Worth seeing it it's still a problem there. I've seen gal stones in an 11 month old (my daughter's pit bull) Muccocele I haven't seen before age 5 but, it's possible with her other infections and, her periodic diarrhea causing possible mild dehydration that she would have it much younger.

I'd definitely have a vet check it out when she isn't in distress and again when she is, see if there might be an intermittent problem that clams down, then flares up again.

I know it's frustrating but, if a cause can be found, it can be treated and/or managed.

It does sound like she is either allergic to chicken or the hormones and antibiotics commonly given chickens for slaughter are a problem for her. Could be the same for other meats, not the meat itself but, the artificial chemicals given the animal the meat came from.

I know, it's like hunting needles in a haystack and, there are 100 of them in there but, only one is the right one.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Tue Jul 03, 2018 4:09 pm

No, Muccocele doesn't look familiar. I'll find the report when I get home. Amy was a little concerned about it ..(her husband is a doctor) and I remember her saying something to the effect of it can be bad for her if her gallbladder isn't functioning the way it should be. Had to do with the image of the gallbladder being slightly fuzzy instead of clear.

This is why I think threads like this are important and that questions are asked on both sides. Too often with digestive issues/sensitivities, food is blamed, alternative foods like TOTW recommended when the food sensitivity may have an underlying medical issue. And vets aren't much better, they put the dog on a Hills special diet and send them on their way.

Both my dogs get Nexgard for fleas./ticks, in your opinion could it have anything to do with her digestive issues?
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Tue Jul 03, 2018 7:05 pm

Nextguard, or any insecticide given orally, topically or, via injection CAN be a problem. They are poisons, they kill parasites and insects. And, yes, Mishka's issues are listed as side effects: https://nexgardfordogs.com/pages/about.aspx

Some pesticides may be better tolerated than others by any given dog but, the bottom line is they are pesticides, they are poisonous to all living creatures, insects, humans, dogs, cats, rodents, whatever. It just comes down to how well the animal tolerates the medication and the owner and vet weighing the risks and side effects of giving the medication vs. the possible diseases and issues if the animal gets the parasites the meds would prevent.

Of course the flip side to that is effective control without pesticides and, though citrus, rosemary and mint does repel fleas and ticks, it's possible for a dog to be sensitive or allergic to any or all of those as well and, it has to be applied to the dog and any soft surface the dog lays on daily, then, you need nematodes or some other means of flea control outdoors on your property.

Some experiments indicate that dogs fed a raw diet are at least somewhat naturally immune to fleas and ticks. I don't know how accurate those experimental results are but, my own are fed raw and, I use natural means of pest control rather than feeding my dogs pesticides. Of course that means yearly heart worm tests for all of them, monitoring carefully for intestinal worms and, weekly checks for fleas and ticks and, daily indoor prevention for my house.

Kaila, my 13.5 week old pup did have fleas when I got her. She got a dip weekly for three weeks (citrus based), a spot on for one month (one dose.) I use a rosemary and mint spray in the house daily, have rosemary, mint and, mosquito plants growing around the dog pen and, spray nematodes annually. My other three have never had a single flea or tick and, my oldest is 8 years old. I do spray them anytime we are leaving the property with them. Keeps the bugs off and, makes them smell nice to any humans they meet.

In the end, it's a decision you and your vet have to make together but, you have the information and, can research other brands to see if anything else might be better.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Tue Jul 03, 2018 11:51 pm

Thank you, Bev, I asked about the Nexgard because everything started right at the time of her very first Nexgard dose. Her initial UTI was in August 2016 and her final UTI/gastreontitis was January 14, 2017. So I was correct with her age at the time...2 years old, going on 3. Although I saw the side affects of Nexgard, things like vomiting happened the following morning so I basically thought it was an after getting the dosage thing. Both dogs vomited the next morning and only after their first dosage, none following a dosage since..

Ok, so I was totally wrong on the gall bladder. Nothing was in the report about the gall bladder at all. The thing that had Amy concerned was called "mildly decreased serosal detail". The summary is as follows: mildly decreased serosal detail, no evidence of dilated small bowel, spleen, kidneys and bladder appear in normal limits. AIS review pending, no evidence of obstruction. Health status: good. She is stable. Prognosis: good. Heart: good, Lungs: good. Tested negative for parasites and giardia.

I'd like to go back and touch on your lacking enzymes thoughts for a moment. My question is...Mishka was raised from a puppy on a plant based protein food. She wasn't being fed a meat based protein diet until she was almost 3 years old. So is it possible, that being raised on a plant based protein diet makes her now lack enzymes to properly digest meats? Seeing as how dogs can go from a kibble diet to being fed only raw, common sense would tell me no, the enzymes would still be there, however, I think it's still a reasonable question because if her diet wasn't a meat protein diet from a puppy on, those enzymes would decrease a bit, no?
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Wed Jul 04, 2018 1:39 am

Assuming she is healthy, like any animal and, even humans, bodies will develop most enzymes if they eat a certain food frequently.

I was raised vegetarian but, I now eat meat. Growing up beans never gave me gas, I could digest them just fine. When I got married and, decided to eat meat, at first any meat gave me gas and diarrhea. Now, meat is fine and beans give me gas. I do eat them but not as my primary source of protien anymore.

Like humans, dogs and other animals are subject to genetic problems with a few enzymes needed for digestion. Lactose intolerant, gluten intolerant, etc...

That mildly decreased serosal detail in an x-ray can be due to mild dehydration or excess fluid in the body cavity or an organ in there. Just means something made the stomach and/or intestines area a bit unclear on the x-ray and, it wasn't the fault of the machine or technician. That's noting to worry about unless it shows up in every x-ray she has of that area, then there might actually be a problem in there.

Yes, Mishka being fed a vegetarian diet would mean that she didn't have all the enzymes to fully digest meat, though being a dog, she would have some regardless of diet. She should develop those enzymes within a month of being fed meat and, when it comes to meat, there is red, white, pork, fresh water fish, saltwater fish and seafood and, organ meat basically. Sam as a young animal's ability to digest milk that gradually lessens until they can't digest milk as adults because they don't get milk beyond a certain age, they loose the ability to digest lactose but, if you give a young animal milk a couple of times a week, they never loose the ability to digest it properly.

I would expect lean, red meat to be the easiest for her, that's the most common prey for a large or pack predator and, should be genetic to digest that. lean white meat next, that's rabbit. Then fish and seafood and, pork the most uncommon.

Wolves will also eat plants if food is scarce, especially berries, melons, apples, pears and, surprisingly black nightshade, which is toxic to us but, not them. A canine is not strictly a carnivore, they are omnivores and scavengers as well as predators and, yes they prefer meat and, need a good amount of it in their diet but, fruits especially are a part of a wild canine diet.

Were I trying to feed Mishka, I'd start at 50% of her protein and 10% of her fat being meat, the remainder plans sourced and slowly, 5% per week convert it until only 5%- 7% of her diet was plant based. Lean red meat first, then adding fish, white meat, organs, pork in that order. If she had soft stools more than 3 days, had runny poop or, vomited, I'd remove that food immediately and, put it on her do not eat that list. But that means feeding raw or, at least homemade and, finding a kibble she can eat a little bit of, just in case she ever had to eat kibble, like at a boarding kennel that refused to feed raw.

With you wanting to feed kibble, it might help her to backtrack to 50/50 vegetarian kibble and meat kibble then, slowly, over the next six months or so, reduce the vegetarian until she is eating 100% meat kibble. That might give her an easier time kicking the enzymes into gear for a variety of meats.

I'd also be watching if her worst times happen either within a few days of giving Nextguard or, when it's nearly time for another dose, meaning when it's out of her system. In either case, I'd suspect that as being the cause, or at least a contributing factor and, discuss it with your vet.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Wed Jul 04, 2018 12:03 pm

The serosal detail then was probably dehydration. She had been doing nothing but throwing up and diareah all morning and the vets did keep her that day to do IV's getting fluids back into her.

Her food was plant based protein but there was some meat in it, it was Natures Domain Salmon and sweet potato. Is that pretty much the same as a vegetarian diet? It varied, but I'd also give ground beef or eggs or chicken as a tier but the amounts were probably minimal. It's weird that those are the 3 things that seem to bother her now. If I fix eggs in the morning and give her some, like the ground beef and chicken it will bother her at times. It's just not *every* time.

With the Nexgard I think it'll be hard to pinpoint cuz her intervals are about every three weeks, and with Nexgard being a monthly thing, it would fall into that either right after a dose or a dose being needed shortly. For whatever reason I always felt it was happening neared the dose being needed shortly time frame. I'll watch that more closely as well.

I can't thank you enough for taking your time to go over all this with me. I really appreciate it. I hope others will take advantage of this thread to delve deeper into the how's and whys of their dogs food sensitivities/digestive issues, to get a better understanding of what their pup needs instead of just playing the food changing game. I am going to take your advice on the 50/50 change, it's something I wanted to do back when this started but ended up doing it for only a week or so. I even wanted to just go back to Natures Domain completely but I like that the Acana is meat based and that I have less fear of it bring recalled and things of that nature. I just feel I'm doing better by them with this food.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Wed Jul 04, 2018 3:26 pm

With that diet as a pup, I'd suspect the more dense fats being the major issue. Salmon has a good amount of fat, but, it's a soft oily fat compared to even that of chicken and, especially compared to pork or beef tallow. Salmon is also flow HDL cholesterol while the others have more HDL, as do eggs. It may be only HDL is the problem. Making most fish and, dark breasted poultry perfectly fine. (watch out for catfish and, carp species like buffalo fish, swai, carp, koi, goldfish, etc.. while low in HDL, they do have more than trout, salmon, tilapia, cod, mackerel and such.)

I'm guessing she would do great with venison, bison, salmon, duck, grouse, guinea fowl,lean goose, trout, cod, crappie, drum, bass and, not so well with other meats and dairy products, eggs, cheese, milk, cream. She'd probably also have issues with pork except center cut loin, ham, bacon, etc...

I'd say Mishka prefers a very heart healthy diet. Smile Not so bad to feed but, do pay attention to her reactions around her flea control, you may want to discuss changing that with your vet.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:55 am

So it looks like the Duck I mentioned above would be best for her. I'm just wondering now if it's wise to be giving her the one meat protein diet (Acana Singles) because to me it seems like I'm furthering her enzymes being reduced by limiting the ingredients. Ughhhh, this is tough! I'm wondering too if I'm ruining Kohdi by limiting his ingredients by feeding them the same food. He's been soooooo healthy his entire life. Everything you mentioned as far as what meats would be bad for her, seem to be true. Seems like we are really figuring this out! Smile

Mishka had soft poop tonite but it's just soft poop, she seems to be feeling fine.

I looked up the date I gave her the last dosage of Nexgard and it was on the 21st of June. So I'll be watching.

Thank you!
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:38 am

Pull her to one meat now but, when she's okay on that for a month, then add another in small amounts, as a treat, for a week until that new meat is 25% of her diet. Kohdi won't loose is "cast iron" gut if he's fed the same as her and, offered a variety of treats as about 15% of his diet. I'm sure he won't mind Smile

Over the course f a year, you should be able to get Mishka on a 3 meat diet and, that's a lot easier to find and, more affordable than single meat foods. I wouldn't expect her to ever do well with dairy other than yogurt, that includes eggs but, she should be fine with duck, venison, rabbit, bison, salmon, mackerel, trout, low HDL Cholesterol meats.

That makes sense, that's pretty much a prey model sort of diet. Wild game tends to be low HDL, and if a husky can eat that sort of diet, a wolf like diet, then, the husky is fine. Look at what working sled dogs are fed - salmon, elk, moose, deer, maybe a little bear meat. Normal diet for them.
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:41 pm

Bev, I don't disagree with everything you have stated, however, it would be beneficial to folks if we see your sources. As far as enzymes are concerned, I have read that it is impossible to gain enzymes, once they are gone they are gone. That is why some dogs that deal with EPI need a certain enzyme in order to process their food, and as far as I know remain on the enzyme supplement for the rest of their lives. Here are 2 articles concerning Enzymes. https://www.petmd.com/dog/nutrition/all-about-digestive-enzymes-dogs and this https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/enzymes-and-your-dog/

I also have a hard time seeing the use of the wording plant based protein kibble vs meat based kibble and you using vegetarian as being the same as a plant based kibble. It is not, plant based kibble indeed has meat as a protein, but also uses plants as a protein, which also break down into carbs. That is a double whammy for a dog who has certain health issues. I digress, the food Mishka was originally eating had meat in it, it was not a vegetarian based kibble. Considering that most kibble is plant based and not meat based, doesn't mean that every dog is being fed a vegetarian diet. In fact it is actually difficult to find a vegetarian kibble, it is out there. For the sake of other people reading, it is best to provide sources and to use proper terms. Nature's domain is a plant based protein kibble that has meat in it, where as Orijen/Acana is a meat based kibble that includes some plants. Very few kibble include 3 meats, altho it is best to feed 3 types of meat in a raw fed diet, kibble fed diets will not includes this, not normally. Duck is not a white meat, it is a red meat, and does provide a high amount of fat into the diet. Looking for novel proteins for dogs, that is a typical choice, however, if a dog has issues with fat, like my gsd she can not handle a lot of fat, feeding duck may back fire, tho it is a recommended choice in order to determine if certain proteins bother a dog, typically it is best to try lamb, since it is a leaner meat, and is considered a white meat. Eggs are not a dairy product, they are a protein and also would be categorized as chicken based.

I am not about to argue, but I have to post this. Providing suggestions with back up resources, prevents someone to try something because someone else said it is fine to do, when it may not be. None of us are vets and are not qualified to give suggestions, if we do provide suggestions then we have to provide resources.

ETA: If there has been new research on enzymes for instance, I would love to see the articles. Feeding and nutrition is an ongoing and often times new info will disregard old info. So I am all for learning new stuff, so if there is new scientific info out there, please share. Smile


Last edited by MiyasMomma on Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:44 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:31 pm

Here's some extra info on determining between dark meat and light meat. I would like to find a little more credible site but think it this one does alright. If I find a better quality source i will add it.

http://djhorsleyfalsgrave.co.uk/read/ask-the-butcher/what-is-the-difference-between-white-and-red-meat/

There is a lot to digest in this thread. (lol no pun intended) Since dog food has become hot button in the last few years more research money is now being put toward it which means what was once good no longer is supposedly and what was once bad, might not be for all. So sources really do help in keeping us all up-to-date on the ever changing world of dog food. We like to build an understanding of why something is a way and who said it is that way.

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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:19 pm

Yes, if they enzymes are 100% gone, then you won't rebuild them but, if they are simply very low due to not eating a food for a while, like us with beans for example, then the body in question can partially digest the food and, that encourages more of the enzymes needed for the food. That's why if there is runny poo or vomiting, that food is off the list for good, no enzymes for it at all. simply softer and/or gas is usually incomplete digestion and/or lacking bacteria and the amount of enzymes needed for that food.

Try it on yourself, eat beans daily for a month. At first they will give you gas but, less and less as the month goes on. Same idea as changing a dog's diet to one with different primary ingredients. Being a dog, they have some enzymes to digest meat genetically, same as humans have some enzymes to digest a variety of foods but, at first those need to be introduced one by one in small amounts wit the easiest to digest first, and the harder ones later. Of course you hit a few that are simply a no go unless you have vary exceptional individual.

I've see it in horses, dogs, cats, cattle, people, goats, sheep, etc... One can eat anything and everything just fine, the next one gets choke or vomits beet pulp, the next gets the runs over corn, another has digestive fits over fish, another over chicken or beef, etc...

I had one horse that could and would eat anything I ate, including hamburgers, hot dogs, french fries, ice cream, tuna sandwiches no problem. Most horses wouldn't even attempt eating most of that but, Tagalong did, she liked it all, never had a single problem for eating it. Another horse couldn't eat beet pulp, he would get choke every time (as close as a horse gets to vomiting.) I am fine with gluten, my daughter is not. My dogs are fine with most foods but, they do best on a prey model diet with a grain fee kibble supplement to keep them eating kibble.

Silver can't handle lettuce or spinach, Halo gets gas from cheese - foul smelly, horrible gas. Knight simply won't eat pears and Kaila so far eats anything and everything. It's often nothing a vet or any test will find, just a matter of finding what works and what is a partial problem that the critter can adapt to eating and, what is an absolute no go.

https://www.holisticpetinfo.com/Digestive-Problems-in-Cats-and-Dogs_ep_119.html

https://www.dogsnaturallymagazine.com/enzymes-and-your-dog/
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PostSubject: Re: Ingredients and their effects on sensitive digestion   Thu Jul 05, 2018 7:56 pm

Bev, let me ask your opinion on this, and I do trust your opinions and experience. When Mishka started having UTI's, on the third UTI I asked for more dosage, meaning, instead of 7 days or whatever, I asked for 10 days as I felt, and the vet agreed, the meds were never actually curing her, and the UTI was allowed to return. After the third UTI, she's never had another one. In my mind, it wasn't any food change that cured her of UTI's, and in fact the food changes worsened her in other areas as I explained in a post above, I believe her UTI's were cured by prolonging the duration she was on meds and adding the cranberry supplement. The vet never did advise me to change her food, I did it under someone else's recommendation because she felt a dog with UTI issues shouldn't be on a food with so many carbs/starches. Now for my question...since Mishka was raised on Natures Domain, a plant based protein, in your opinion, would it be wise to just stop with this meat based protein food, and go back to Natures Domain and do like I used to with adding meats (I think I'll still leave chicken out of it) and eggs and yogurt? Being that it's a plant based protein, my thoughts are that the added meats and stuff won't be as bothersome to her being that it's on top of plant protein instead on top of an already very rich meat protein. Being on the cranberry supplement I'm hoping would also ward off any issues with carbs/starches and recurring UTI's. Being on Acana, both dogs gained weight yet eat less than ever, and although I don't know for sure this is a food issue, pics in another thread about Acana made me wonder even more if Mishka's fur loss by her hind quarters is actually normal. Her fur there started coming out shortly after starting the food, and to this day has never fully come back although it is getting thicker now. The only issue I personally ever had with Natures Domain was that the dogs, both of them, would have too many instances of throwing up bile in the morning from having an empty stomach. While I will probably never be comfortable with anything a Diamond manufactures to the point I am with Acana, my previous Huskies ate Natures Domain as well, and seemed to do well on it.

For almost half my life, I raised Huskies with their epilepsy and special needs, only to lose them, and I finally get two " normal" Huskies and I've ruined one by changing her food on her. I just need to go back to having dogs where I'm not waiting for the other shoe to drop, wondering if today she has had too much fat and will explode. It's always hard for me to watch her when she's not feeling well, she is absolutely amazing on her good days, the way she should be all the time. So I really need to know, is going back to Natures Domain a bad idea?

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