Again this has NOTHING to do with Bella or myself but it does have to do with dogs but not Siberians - so I figured the off-topic might be the best place for it? Anyway, here goes nothing!

I have a friend, we will call friend Suzie. Suzie has Pembroke Welsh Corgis.
Some history:
I've known Suzie for going on 8 years we've been best friends since high school. Suzie works - A LOT and has ZERO family support or a stable family. Out of high school Suzie wanted a dog - she wanted a Pembroke. She lived with her mother and her mother absolutely did NOT want a dog. Long story short the dog lasted maybe a year before she had to re-home her.

Fast forward 6 years:
Suzie lives in an apartment with her boyfriend. Two years ago she (they) bought a Pembroke female. A few months later they decided their little girl needed a friend and bought a male. Well, they then decided last year they wanted to have puppies! It was last March their litter was born, planned pregnancy. 6 puppies 3 boys 3 girls. All of them lived. Now, her male and female were over a year old (possibly going on two I'm not -positive-) with this litter.

Keep in mind; They do not show, they do not do obedience, rally, herding trials or agility with their dogs. Their dogs are not health tested beyond going to the vet for their physicals and the x-rays they have on file of her female from the pregnancy.

They kept two males from their litter for themselves and sold the rest. She took one of her puppies she kept to obedience classes and started foundation agility with him. The other is left at home with the two adults. They do/did keep them separated ESPECIALLY when the adult male started showing strong aggression both towards the puppies and the female (more so one puppy than the other).

But both of them work -a lot- so the dogs are home alone a lot of the time everyday. Her male is a constant barker and shows same sex aggression. They don't get out on walks hardly ever and IF they do it is ONLY her adult male. Her female is overweight.

Some more info on Suzie (recent):
Suzie wants to become a dog trainer (is going through Pennfoster and attempting to go through ABC). She also wants to join the PWCCA (Pembroke Welsh Corgi Club of America) and the local (regional?) PWCC. She wanted to do agility with her dogs but ever since I've shown so much interest in Conformation she's wanted to dabble in it (trying to contact breeders and what not - she's also the type of person who NO MATTER WHAT she knows more than you. We constantly fight over conformation because in her "studies" she reads something but I know something else/better/changed but I'm not right). Anyway - got off track.

To me!:
I'm all for ethical and responsible breeding. I've told her time and time again she should NOT breed her dogs. She doesn't prove them in any way. They aren't from breeders who prove their dogs. Her female is from I guess a pet shop but she has papers and her male is from a "breeder" (around the same area where we got Bella so I know better than to actually call them breeders) and is papered also (she puts a lot of stock in saying her dogs are "papered).

The other day we were talking and the topic of her breeding again came up (she said it's been a year and she's in heat now). I told her she should just get her female spayed (after the first litter her female got pyo but they cured her without a spay.) and her male neutered. I told her dog breeders who are ethical and responsible do NOT make money off of their puppies. I told her that she needs to have her dogs health tested (eyes, hips, elbows, heart and eyes [that I know of off the top of my head] and that doesn't include the breed specific tests she needs to do) and that takes a lot of money (something she is tight on -always-). I told her that to be breeding them she should be proving her dogs in some way be it conformation, herding, agility or obedience or all of them. She responded with "if I get them proven to show that they're bred to the standard that should be all I need. Why do I have to do all of that?" I told her raising puppies costs money and I was met with "Are you kidding me? raising puppies is like taking a paycheck." Which pissed me off and ended the conversation.

I absolutely cannot get the point across to her that she is basically being a "BYB". I've told her this numerous times and I told her to ask any breeder she talks to about it and they'd tell her the same thing.

I guess this is just a rant but I wanted some honest thoughts/opinions/advice on what you all think.

Kudos to you is all I have time to type. I will respond later. Sorry you're going through this though

My goodness. Reminds me of the guy I always run into that wants to breed his abnormally small and weird bone structure Saint Bernard bitch. What is it with "papers"? I tried and tried to explain what it would take for me to breed my dog (instead of an outright "no", I was trying to educate the fool). They get defensive when you say papers don't mean squat. This problem is deeply rooted in an older cultural view of dogs and their place in the American family. Frankly, I can't stand to even try anymore. I smile and nod, then head on way.

Good luck getting through to that mind.

Thanks guys

I've tried speaking to her in terms of profit - especially before her first litter was born. I tell how she has to get all the testing done like hips and elbows and she goes "I have x-rays of (females) hips from when she was pregnant". I said no you have to get both her hips and the males hips and elbows done - which if they have to be put user to have it done will cost more - and then she has to send them I'm to be evaluated which costs money - and got "well the vet has the x-rays on file" and I tried telling her that's now how it is done but she wasn't trying to hear that. I also told her the eye need checked every year - both adults. Then I went to heart problems and got "I don't get your problem-their hearts (adults and puppies) are checked when they go for their physicals".

She knows having them costs a lot and I've told her of all the problems that can happen after the puppy leaves (and now I have more to tell her thanks to you guys ). But she swears up and down that shes making money and I guess she is since she's not doing anything with them. She knows about puppy mills but she thinks she is "bettering the breed" by breeding them.

It's just a ridiculous situation especially when you claim to want to get into breed clubs and be an advocate for the breed but you can't even be considered an ethical breeder by their standards and any breeder she goes to to learn is going to be unhappy to her that he bred her dogs and call her a byb (I guess coming from a friend t doesn't sound as bad? Maybe)

I just don't know how you could be friends with someone like that, i'd have exploded on them already! lol

By all means really encourage her to go to shows and join a group that actually meets up! After getting last place enough times or possibly kicked out of the ring totally (depending on how bad her dogs are) I think that will kick her down a notch. I'd ask other breeders who've been doing it for a long time and with that same breed to talk to her. She obviously does not respect your advice. Hopefully she'll respect a 30yr breeder's advice over that of a "study."

Have this lady send her a few e-mails. She loves to try to talk byb's out of breeding!
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/ruff/about-joanna/
http://blacksheepcardigans.com/

Her articles about breeding are great (well at least most of them. most people wouldn't agree with the merl to merl breeding issue).

I swear I was just having this same argument with my fiance. I am on a totally different level than him when it comes to animals. He was raised with a dad that doesn't really care for the well being of animals, and mother that does care for them, but doesn't understand and ends up in places like the above. Lucky for me he just doesn't really care for pups so it won't ever be an issue, but it still makes me irritated. I might get into showing and breeding one day, but first I have to get over the anxiety of seeing a dog leave my care. I never feel like they are going to be taken care of as well as I do (or at least think I do, I would hope so after my $330 vet bill yesterday to take Diesel for his yearly checkup with a year of heartworm preventative, along with Xiah's first checkup.) I think I will end up starting or working with a rescue though... the ones that are unwanted get me more than making new ones.

I have this argument all of the time with my friend anymore -.-

Unfortunately - she's pretty sure her bitch is pregnant again. She also went to a corgi breed club meeting early in January. She said she was very up front with them about having a litter and breeding and she basically said that he people there were really understanding and basically said that there aren't many people breeding corgis so they wouldn't look down on her for doing it.

I found it a bit hard to believe but whatevs.

Maybe cardigans... they're considered an "endangered" breed if I'm correct. Pembrokes? Not bred as much as huskies, but they aren't nearly as "endangered". Would she possibly just feed info to you that isn't true? Like she went there, they put her down, and then she told you they were understanding anyway?

Who knows. I like to think not lol I've known her going on close to 10 years. But if they did put her down I'm sure she'd have just not told me about the entire thing rarer than tell me she went and they were accepting of her breeding.

I especially suspected it because she said most people there dealt in conformation and not really agility so much like she wanted.

I wish I knew what to tell you. I hate know-it-alls. I try not to be one myself. Really all I know is that she might end up learning the hard lesson one day if one of her pups comes back with a heart murmur or some sort of genetic defect that afflicts corgi's and she gets sued. Or her bitch runs into issues, kills one of her pups, dies during birth.....

What about the two male puppies as well? Does she plan on getting them fixed? I could definitely see an issue with accidental inbreeding with them always being in such close quarters.

Her one male didn't have a descended testicle - she was supposed to have him neutered so that he didn't have any complications. I can't remember if it eventually descended or not but I know neither him or the other is neutered.

Right now the boy pups are living up at her boyfriends parents house and she has moved back with her mother and took the two adults - mainly because her male hasnt been aggressive to anyone and her boyfriend thinks that the two adults can never be separated because they've been together and inseparable since puppies.

What a terrible situation. I know exactly what you mean though! My cousin got two jack russell puppies and before the female was even a year old, she was pregnant! She made a puppy have puppies and it was just wrong. Thankfully nothing went wrong with the delivery and the puppies were all healthy and found homes. Shortly after that my cousin gave both the dog's away, because the show of having puppies was over. She goes through dog's like she goes through purses, every time I see her she has a new one and it disgusts me.
Last year she had a yorkie that swallowed a fish bone and took it to the vet, because it was so sick (which I'm surprised she even did that). The vet told her the fish bone was stuck in her small intestine and if she didn't have the operation she would die. My cousin paid no mind and instead of doing the operation, took the dog home and went to a weekend concert and when she came back the dog was dead on the back porch. She also had a boxer that was so thin it finally died at the age of 4, but said it died of "health problems" ... yeah you didn't feed it! She makes me sick ... The sad part is there were a ton more dog's she had too, but these were just some of the more terrible stories with her.

:O

OMG Kelly. I would report her! That's terrible!!!

I agree, you should take pictures of these kinds of things and report her to the SPCA, or something!

I would, but those are thing's my grandmother told me. She lives like 2 hours away and I don't ever see her. My grandma told me about what happened to the Yorkie month's after it was already dead, so there wasn't much proof ... but I did see the thin boxer, they said she would eat but wouldn't gain weight. I find that hard to believe.

If Diesel was eating and not gaining weight, I gaurantee you I would find someone who would find out the cause and let me make payments.