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 At a loss with Gage

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Hayden_69
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 11:21 am

That is true Tori, I wasn't considering the fact that he is a rescue and the bond is not there. I was more so putting myself in her shoes and how I would correct my own dog where the bond is there.

Looking back at previous posts I believe Amanda has only had Gage for a little over a month, so he is still very much adjusting to his new home and family members.

I've taken in stray dogs before and do handle them much differently than my own.

If I were in your shoes, I would personally keep a leash on like Brooke suggested that way you can correct the issue before it becomes a problem.

I still believe he shouldn't have contact with the cats until Gage can trust you and you feel comfortable knowing your not in harms way.
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Rigbyjek
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:46 pm

I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I'm not saying grabbing a dogs muzzle is being aggressive with the dog. What I'm saying is, we're talking about a rescue dog- with this thread we know nothing about his history but it's clear he's uncomfortable being handled when he's caught off guard. He's already made contact with the owners arm, if she grabs his muzzle he is going to do one of two things, fight or flight. I don't think it's a good idea to grab his muzzle when he's this focused on the cat- especially not knowing the dogs history. Every dog/owner is different and you have to choose a method that works for you. Good luck and keep us posted!
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Koda
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:54 pm

@Rigbyjek wrote:
I'm sorry if there was a misunderstanding. I'm not saying grabbing a dogs muzzle is being aggressive with the dog.
You didn't, I did Wink

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Keyda81
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:01 pm

I'm just curious with the pinch collar method. Since he already has issues being touched around the neck, wouldn't the pinch collar make that worse?

I would say a leash is the best idea in this situation. That way you can pull him away without actually touching him, and hopefully keep yourself out of harms way of his mouth. Again, only in a controlled situation. But I would keep them apart as much as possible for now.
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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:38 pm

I know a lot of people advocate pinch collars, but they terrify me - I think if I put one on Delilah (who is also collar shy) she would go berserk..it was hard enough to get a nylon choke on her (mind you, if it were just slipping it over it would be no problem, but in the right place was a chore).

To each their own, but I wouldn't put a pinch collar on a dog who is already struggling with the collar. Not that I disagree with slipping a collar over the head, I just wouldn't go with prong...god forbid that dog flail and stab himself.
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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:56 pm

This is how I look at it:

The dog could 100% kill the cat or small animal. In my house that is completely unacceptable to even chase down the cats. I am willing to do whatever it takes to ensure those animals are safe and the dogs know 100% that the cats are completely off limits. Odin was also collar shy and we played many training games to desensitize him to being grabbed and lead by the collar. Using the pinch collar to express firmly the cats are absolutely a no-no didn't have any negative effect on collar training at all. He had a pinch collar fitted and put on correctly as well as was corrected via the leash and rewarded for avoidance and ignoring behaviors with the cats. Personally I feel dragging the dog off using a regular leash and collar is going to be more negative towards collar sensitive than a pinch collar correction.

Choke collars are not nearly as quick of a correction and with the coat of a siberian I don't find them very effective at all. They tend to get "caught" mid correction because of all the fur.

My personal opinion from experience very similar to this. But i'm not getting in on the pinch collar argument. Small animal safety is our biggest priority in the house and I will do whatever it takes to ensure that.

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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:00 pm

@arooroomom wrote:
This is how I look at it:

The dog could 100% kill the cat or small animal. In my house that is completely unacceptable to even chase down the cats. I am willing to do whatever it takes to ensure those animals are safe and the dogs know 100% that the cats are completely off limits. Odin was also collar shy and we played many training games to desensitize him to being grabbed and lead by the collar. Using the pinch collar to express firmly the cats are absolutely a no-no didn't have any negative effect on collar training at all. He had a pinch collar fitted and put on correctly as well as was corrected via the leash and rewarded for avoidance and ignoring behaviors with the cats. Personally I feel dragging the dog off using a regular leash and collar is going to be more negative towards collar sensitive than a pinch collar correction.

Choke collars are not nearly as quick of a correction and with the coat of a siberian I don't find them very effective at all. They tend to get "caught" mid correction because of all the fur.

My personal opinion from experience very similar to this. But i'm not getting in on the pinch collar argument. Small animal safety is our biggest priority in the house and I will do whatever it takes to ensure that.


Completely understandable - but you are very responsible..I'm not saying the OP isn't either, but many people don't fit them correctly.


May I ask what your thought is on shock collars? just a question, as I know people use them for correction purposes. Even some friends of mine use them with their shepherds.
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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:11 pm

I have never personally used a shock collar and wouldn't. A vibrate collar can be used as a cue for recall for dogs who are hearing impaired- but other than that I don't have any personal experience with them. Just research and reading.

Ewe is very dog reactive and if you would have asked me 2 years ago I would have been in the search for a shock collar to combat his reactivity while off leash. Now, with better understanding of certain positive reinforcement methods and behavior plans which give the dog options and choices... I would never in a million years even count that as a viable option. He has improved 100x without any punishment techniques.

However- that being said. I still do advocate the responsible use of punishment methods or "corrections" in certain situations- such as this.

To sum that all up I don't feel a shock collar is appropriate for this scenario.

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Hayden_69
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 3:30 pm

Since the accident with our Yorkie I have used a shock collar with Hayden. I honestly wish I would have started using it a LONG time ago! It has been the best investment I have made. His training and listening skills have improved 100%. He listens every single time I call him or ask him to do something on the first time I ask him to do it. I don't even have to use the remote. As long as he can feel the prongs and know's the collar is there, I don't have to actually "shock" him. I have it set on a 6 out of 100, so he barely feels anything anyway with all his fur.

Before I had to have him on leash even in my own yard (he use to try to escape). I can now have him off leash in my yard and trust him enough not to leave my side until I give him permission to. I'm sure I could do this in an open field as well with no fence, but I wouldn't risk it.

I wouldn't recommend anyone to use to E collar that doesn't use positive reinforcement with it. In this situation, I wouldn't use it until the dog can trust her as it might make him more fearful than he already is. Eventually, it could be a good tool if he continued to mess with the cats.
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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:37 pm

Spoke with Ewe's trainer, she recommended these links about shock collars:
http://talbotspy.com/are-electric-shock-collars-good-training-tools/
http://avsabonline.org/resources/position-statements <- Information is found under the "punishment statements" pdf link.


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capblossoms
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:43 pm

Sigh. The neighbors smaller dog (basset mix?) dog ripped a plank off the fence and came into our yard (he has done this probably about 12 times, first time since we have had Gage.) and Gage was after him. We had to run out and try and separate them, and my husband got snapped at. He is leaning very much towards sending Gage to a rescue. I'm so at a loss. I can see his point, but I feel like I am failing the dog.
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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 5:57 pm

@Hayden_69 wrote:
Since the accident with our Yorkie I have used a shock collar with Hayden. I honestly wish I would have started using it a LONG time ago! It has been the best investment I have made. His training and listening skills have improved 100%. He listens every single time I call him or ask him to do something on the first time I ask him to do it. I don't even have to use the remote. As long as he can feel the prongs and know's the collar is there, I don't have to actually "shock" him. I have it set on a 6 out of 100, so he barely feels anything anyway with all his fur.

Before I had to have him on leash even in my own yard (he use to try to escape). I can now have him off leash in my yard and trust him enough not to leave my side until I give him permission to. I'm sure I could do this in an open field as well with no fence, but I wouldn't risk it.

I wouldn't recommend anyone to use to E collar that doesn't use positive reinforcement with it. In this situation, I wouldn't use it until the dog can trust her as it might make him more fearful than he already is. Eventually, it could be a good tool if he continued to mess with the cats.

I'm glad Hayden is doing better. Smile
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Koda
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:00 pm

@capblossoms wrote:
Sigh. The neighbors smaller dog (basset mix?) dog ripped a plank off the fence and came into our yard (he has done this probably about 12 times, first time since we have had Gage.) and Gage was after him. We had to run out and try and separate them, and my husband got snapped at. He is leaning very much towards sending Gage to a rescue. I'm so at a loss. I can see his point, but I feel like I am failing the dog.
How is finding Gage a home that suits him failing him? Is it your fault that you have small animals present in your home? This line of thinking makes no sense to me. You found a dog on the street, rescued him, brought him into your home... where is there a rule book saying that you have to keep every stray dog you find?

Gage sounds like he would do well and be happy in a small-animal free household. Maybe a home with another husky so he has someone to play with. Your commitment to your other animals makes you a poor fit. That doesn't mean that you've FAILED him. How does saving him make you a failure?

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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:05 pm

A good one on shock collars used in working GSDs: http://drsophiayin.com/blog/entry/are-electronic-shock-collars-painful-or-just-annoying-to-dogs-a-new-study-r

I agree with Tori, 100%

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capblossoms
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:08 pm

Hmm, I guess it is less of feeling like a failure than it is guilt over the prospect of bouncing him around again.
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Keyda81
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:19 pm

Sometimes things just don't work out. Not every dog is going to fit in every home. Just like not every person can fit into any job. It's not anyone's fault.
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capblossoms
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:49 pm

Gage just killed one of my pet rats. The bedroom door got left open, Gage snuck in. He bent the cage and grabbed Oliver. He killed him before I could get to him. It took shane a good 10 15 minutes to get the body away from him.
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capblossoms
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 6:51 pm

Shane just told me he couldn't get the body away. Gage ate it.
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Hayden_69
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:17 pm

@capblossoms wrote:
Shane just told me he couldn't get the body away. Gage ate it.

Oh my gosh ... That's terrible! RIP Oliver Sad

I wasn't aware you had rat's too. Perhaps finding Gage another home would be best for him. He would probably feel more comfortable in a home with less pet's and temptation. Not that there is anything wrong with you're home, just less small animals or none at all would probably be best for him. That's up to you of course to make that call.

I'm sorry about the loss of you're rat.


Last edited by Hayden_69 on Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:37 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:34 pm

I am so sorry to hear about that! I had rats in high school and I know the bond you can form with them.

I have to agree that a home with no small animals might be a better fit for Gage. It's always tough bringing another animal into your home and you can only make it work to a certain extent. At some point you have to decide what is not only best for the dog, but what is best for everyone that was already there.
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:22 am

I'm sorry about your rat.

The study on dr. Yins site about ecollars has been widely discredited.

There will always be some saying ecollars are holy-terrors, and there will always be those that say they are great devices when used properly. I know some dogs that are ecollar trained and are perfectly happy confident dogs that don't show the signs referenced in the study. I think it comes down to using it properly and the dogs personality. Some dogs should never be ecollar trained just like I think some dogs don't respond well to pinch collars, or muzzle grabs, or shouting, or or or or.... Know your dog, and do right for them.
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Sat Dec 29, 2012 1:26 am

Was just saying, Riley, and sharing information our trainer has shared with me when I asked for information. I do not own nor have I used an e collar. Personal preference to not. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:50 pm

Amanda I don't think you are failing Gage if you decide to re-home him. You have to be honest with yourselves and decide whether you have the time and can make the commitment to re-train Gage. Not only that, but you need to be honest with yourself as to whether you're ever going to be able to trust him at all- because it sounds like there is some lacking there on both sides. I think the only way you can truly fail Gage is if he is kept confined to a kennel for the rest of his life- or like wise you have to keep the cats confined to a bedroom or something. You have to think not only of yourselves and Gage, but your other pets as well. I'm sorry to hear about your rat. Sad At this point I would suggest you either seek a good trainer in your area to help you re-build a relationship and re-train Gage or begin looking to re-home him to a home with no small animals. I don't think you are failing him if you re-home him. It's like someone else mentioned, not everything works out the way we always want it to. Let us know what you decide, and we're here if you want to chat.
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itsjosieb
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PostSubject: Re: At a loss with Gage   Mon Dec 31, 2012 4:37 am

I'm so sorry to hear that. I had a pet rat a few years ago and I still miss him every day. He was my little buddy.

Under the circumstances, it might be best if you rehome Gage. He's already gotten one of your smaller pets, so for the safety of the rest of them I think that's what I would do. Even though it's a terribly difficult and sad thing to do.
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