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 Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?

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jordan.payton
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PostSubject: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:18 am

Hello! I'm new to this forum!

I've seen a few posts that have referred to this but none of them really answered my question.
After months of consideration, I have finally found a breeder I feel comfortable with and will be bringing home my first husky puppy in August! I love you

I have second pick of the females right now. The breeder said she will be sending me pictures shortly after the pups are born so I can pick which one I'd like to bring into my home. My question is: Is there a way to tell if a puppy will be wooly when they are that young?
The father is a standard coat and the mother is a wooly, so the gene is there. I don't really have a preference, but it'd be nice to know what to expect.

If anyone has pictures of their wooly pup when they were really young, that'd be great.

Like I said, this is my first husky so any advice would be great!
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:56 am

If the breeder is intentionally breeding woolies they are not very ethical and I'd highly suspect they did not do any health testing on the breeding pair. I would not feel right by not encouraging you to seek an ethical breeder-

To answer your question you can usually tell early the type of coat your dog will likely have. Woolies tend to have longer puppy coat, plumie tails, and wispy 'feathers' around their ears and cheeks.
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Sheba&Kennedy
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:56 am

A reputable breeder shouldn't be breeding a whooly husky. A whooly coat is an undesirable coat trait in Siberians and is out of standard. That female should never be bred and should be spayed and loved as a pet, not as a mommy.

I also strongly suggest you try to find a true reputable breeder to find your furry baby.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:53 am

Woolies are generally evident by the time they are a few weeks of age. A wooly coat is considered a defect as it does not conform to the breed standard. While obviously a wooly coat doesn't hurt a thing health-wise, and if you aren't interested in showing, you may wonder why this matters. Basically, if your breeder isn't being discriminating against an obvious flaw, like a wooly coat, then they aren't being discriminating about unseen defects, like bad hips or poor conformation that can lead to joint problems. Essentially, they aren't breeding for quality puppies, they are just breeding, and don't really care about the future health of their dogs' offspring.

I would advise you to not line the pockets of someone who doesn't know enough or care enough to breed for the healthiest dog possible. However, if you are WANTING a wooly pup, you can find them often in shelters and rescues. I do not show, and my wooly mix pictured below was the most wonderful dog ever and lived to be nearly 15. A wooly coat is notan indicator of poor health, just poor genetics.
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:43 am

I have to agree with everything stated above. I notice often times that a breeder will say that they are breeding for 'temperament' or 'family friendly' dogs. Often times, a well meaning, but uninformed breeder can actually create health/temperament issues by selecting one characteristic and breeding only for that trait, including temperament. I am a huge fan of Temple Grandin (got to see her work with a friend's horse once!), and in her book, she uses an example of breeding chickens to have larger and larger breasts to increase production. This created a major aggression issue in the roosters, because genetics for physical attributes and temperament are linked in ways we don't completely understand. Even reputable breeders that genetically test can encounter unexpected temperament/health issues. Reputable breeders will then work to trace back through their lines to figure out when the issue was introduced into the line, test any current dogs from that line and spay/neuter any carriers.

I'm not saying that a wooly coated dog will have behavioral or health issues, I have known many awesome, healthy woolies. Smile What I am trying to say, is that breeding a wooly is a red flag that the breeder is not reputable. A reputable breeder breeds to hopefully create better, healthier, and more sound dogs and compares results to the breed standard or breeds for a purpose suited to the dogs. For example, racing line huskies are put together differently then show line huskies, but both are trying to improve the line. A wooly coat is considered a flaw because it would be difficult to harness and work, the long coat would get tangled in the harness.

These are just my opinions, and this isn't an attack on you, or directed only toward you, more of a philosophical belief, but I believe that purchasing from a breeder like this is problematic for many reasons. But mostly it supports an industry that creates living things with no regard for their future or health. For me, morally, it falls under the 'get-away driver is just as guilty as the robber' umbrella. Someone who buys a puppy, may not be guilty of irresponsible breeding themselves, but they support the breeder. A robber couldn't rob a bank without a get-away driver, and a breeder couldn't breed litter after litter without buyers.

To answer your question, I would simply tell the breeder if you prefer a non-wooly, or a wooly, and request to make your pick when the pups are a few weeks old and the coat type is evident. If the breeder is not willing to allow you to wait, that is another red flag. Most people wouldn't want to make a pick at 2-3 days old anyway. 2-3 day old puppies may not even survive (from any breeder of any breed), there are many, many variables when puppies are that little. Plus, their eyes don't open for a couple of weeks, and if you have an eye color preference, that won't be evident either. I would recommend doing some more research on breeders, there are people on this forum from all over, and they may be able to help you find an ethical breeder close to you. Smile Good luck and I hope no matter what you end up doing, you get a great puppy.
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jordan.payton
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:46 am

She isn't a huge breeder and the dogs are seen as pets. She isn't trying to breed show dogs, she's just interested in breeding pets. All of the dogs also come with a health guarantee

I also am not interested in showing my dog, just want a happy, healthy pup to share my life with.

Not so sure why this is such a heated topic on here. I don't see the wooly coat as something undesirable, I recognize that is against the show standard, but again I'm just looking for a pet. I don't see it at all unethical to breed a wooly mother. These dogs live in an amazing environment and are very healthy. That's all that should matter, not the length of a coat.

Regardless thank you for your help.
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:55 am

This is not a show vs pet issue. Nor is this a size of your breeder or breeding program issue. Many of us believe and recognize that not just 'show' kennels need to be breeding in the best interest of the breed. The 'pet' breeders are those that do the most damage to the health, quality, and functionality to the breed. This can only stop by more people becoming educated on ethical vs non ethical breeding practices. The fact remains that if this breeder, no matter the intent behind the breeding, is breeding in an unethical, ill informed manor. As it's been stated many times over, if they are breeding willingly overlooking a detrimental flaw to the breed functionality and against the standard they are not looking deeper. These 'breeding' dogs I'd bet real money on are not OFA'd nor CERF'd (hips and eyes clear) so they really can't guarantee you they are even passing on the best genetics they possibly can to your puppy. Health guarantee or not- no one wants a pup to suffer advanced hip displaysia at 9 months of age or to go blind before a year with painful Corneal Dystrophy or Juvenile Cataracts.

If you truly care about wanting a healthy quality puppy to share your life with as a companion or whatever the plan may evolve into do your research and choose a breeder that cares enough to be breeding ethically for sound health, quality, and functionality.
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jordan.payton
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 10:57 am

Again not sure why your seem to be getting heated. Thank you for your help.
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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:03 am

I think the crux of the issue is that your breeder is purposely breeding "pet" dogs from parentage that should not be bred from in the first place due to their coat and the upkeep that it requires. Our breed is a minimal grooming breed... They don't tend to mat or need to be trimmed... A good brush and bath is really what they need. Blatantly going against that to breed pretty pet dogs is a good indication that there are other health and genetic issues which are also not being considered in their breeding.

I would encourage you to ask your breeder for health clearances on the parentage (OFA/CERF and others).... Not just a vet telling them their dog can reproduce.

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Mobezilla
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:03 am

As it has already been mentioned, this is not a show dog vs. pet dog breeder thing. If your breeder is willing to overlook a wooly coat, most likely she also overlooked hips, eyes, and other problems that could be your pup. Thousands of dollars in vet bills and needless suffering just because your breeder doesn't do those 'silly' tests because she doesn't show her dogs. Again its up to you, but we're just asking you do the research before going with a breeder thats just using your money for herself.
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:09 am

I'm sorry you took it as 'getting' heated because I'm not. But the reason that people are so passionate about this topic is due to the fact it's breeding practices like this do actual harm to the breed, and help perpetuate unethical breeding practices. Worse is the unsuspecting puppy buyer is the one that is going to 'pay' the ultimate price when that bundle of fluff is anything less than perfect. I'm not sure why people seem to think it's "OK" to breed for reasons other than health and quality when it's not intended to be anything more than a pet. Or why it's "OK" to expect lesser quality breeding practices because it's 'just a pet'. But that's where we keep seeing eye problems and hip problems, temperament issues, rampant allergies, and various other issues infiltrating our breed. It's not about 'show' standard, of which there is no such thing there is a breed standard which all breeders 'should' be keeping in the front of their mind when planning a breeding. If you want a woolie, or just a companion there are thousands of abandon huskies in rescues all over the US- At least that wouldn't be lining the pocket of unethical breeders.
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Ericobeasto
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:30 am

jordan.payton wrote:
She isn't a huge breeder and the dogs are seen as pets. She isn't trying to breed show dogs, she's just interested in breeding pets. All of the dogs also come with a health guarantee

I also am not interested in showing my dog, just want a happy, healthy pup to share my life with.

Not so sure why this is such a heated topic on here. I don't see the wooly coat as something undesirable, I recognize that is against the show standard, but again I'm just looking for a pet. I don't see it at all unethical to breed a wooly mother. These dogs live in an amazing environment and are very healthy. That's all that should matter, not the length of a coat.

Regardless thank you for your help.

I am sorry that people are coming at you with their opinions like they have been on this subject... A lot of people have strong beliefs on this site regarding breeding, and other tense topics. I know you did not expect this when you posted and i feel bad for you. Ive been in a simular situation when i first joined to forum aswell and got really frustrated and almost gave up on the site. However they also are very very helpful and caring pet owners who just try to help and let their strong personal opinions come off very strong to get a point across even if the orginal post didnt ask for it. They dont do this to be mean or to say ur bad for trying to purchase this dog. They are just trying to educate. Koda's mom was a wooley and dad wasnt, and my breeder did breed her on purpose. When i already put a deposit down i didnt know about all these opinions and info about breeders breeding them on purpose. Now that i did my own personal research after hearing opinions from othera i highly doubt i will use the same breeder again. There are only a few i would go to for my next pup. I dont regret at all getting koda from the breeder i did though because he is such a perfect dog! So dont let these memebers tell you what to do. They just are trying to make you understand why they disagree with it. If you get a dog fr this breeder this forum will still welcome you with all your future questions. And not treat u or ur dog any differently.. However if your not as commited to this breeder and dont have a deposit down, there are a bunch of memembers who know alot of really great breeders that might actually even be cheaper than the breeder ur going to. But if you want to stick with that breeder that is great for you. Aslong as you feel comfortable thats all that matters. Just letting you know though its so easy to fall in love with a pup and you see pictures knowing you can pick one. Just dont let puppy fever block your thoughts on the breeder.. Goodluck! And make sure you share pictures of the new puppy!!!!
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:52 am

Thank you Ericobeasto.

Gosh guys thanks for the warm welcome! pale
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 11:53 am

Yes, I agree. Sorry to get all preachy on you. I brought my personal experiences volunteering at a rescue into the equation and get very passionate (I still stick by what I said though). Smile And definitely stick around and share pix and stories no matter where you bring your puppy home from Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:25 pm

Everyone here just wants to help. Thats all it is!! Don't get down they just really want to help you pick out the best puppy for you. BTW, welcome post pictures as soon as you find your pup!! wave
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 12:36 pm

Jordan, keep in mind that you came here and asked for advice and that's exactly what you received. I have seen nothing heated or unhelpful posted. Our goal here is to help you get the healthiest pup possible and protecting the breed. One of the ways we do that is through education, but it is moot if you are not open to anything people say to help you.

Woolies are not breed standard and therefore should not be bred. Breed standard is breed standard and applies to the entire breed whether a dog is meant for show or to be simply a companion animal. There are functional reasons for why woolies are not to be bred, it is not simply a matter of opinion that we are trying to force you to adopt. You would be wise to not shut down and ignore the advice you've been given simply because it does not support your desire and plans to acquire a wooly husky. Even truly reputable breeders will occasionally have a wooly puppy pop up, but when they do, those wooly puppies are excluded from contributing to the gene pool (i.e. sold as pets on a spay/neuter contract) for good reason.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:09 pm

Hey Jordan,

Do you have your money down at this point? It sounds as though you do given that you said you now have 2nd choice of the females, in which case most of the discussion is moot. Should you back out, will she return your deposit money? How soon do you have to give your decision? Out of curiousity are you interested in a wooly or a nonwooly? You indicated in a previous post that you have not preference. Regardless of your decision, best wishes in finding your perfect companion. All that said, you did state that any advice is welcome, which is different than asking people to only answer a question.

You stated that you are not looking to purchase a show dog, but want a happy and healthy pet to share your life. The underlying point that individuals are trying to make to you, is that by purchasing a puppy from a breeder who is "simply breeding pets" and who has obviously shown no regard for for the breed standard, you are very likely shooting yourself in the foot in regards to the healthy part of your wishes. There are several red flags that appear to me in regards to this breeder you have selected. First off, nobody should be breeding just to produce pets - thats like say, "its perfectly ok if the dog is subpar are unhealthy because it will never see the inside of the show ring". When you buy a car, do you buy the cheap model because your never going to race it, or do you look for the one with the best record of performance and durability? People that don't pay attention to something as obvious as coat are also not looking at bone structure, eye health, etc. which are not obvious traits. These things can all lead to an unhealthy dog. You said the breeder has a health guarantee - how long is it good for and what does it cover? In most cases a health guarantee is good for 72 hours after you bring the puppy home, after that, its on you. It doesn't take much to make a 72 hour guarantee. Secondly, you state that the breeder is giving you second choice of the females? How soon is she asking you to make your decision? I'm betting it will be fairly quickly, which would then mean that she also is not interested in or concerned with temperment or personality, and trying to match the puppies needs to those of the purchaser either. Every puppy has a different temperment and personality, and choices should never be made initially on things like coat color or coat type. Eye color won't even be obvious early on, so that isn't even a consideration. Personally, I would give this breeder further consideration before you move forward if you are able. If not, delay your choice as long as possible, to give you time to get to know the personility of your new potential puppy.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 1:50 pm

Jordan, I think you can fully understand why we all feel so passionate about breed standard at this point. It's really about health and the fact that many of us have dogs who were bred out of standard or with no regardless to standard, health(testing, genetic issues, etc.) or temperament. I am one of these people. My female has a severe back issue that was passed on genetically and is plagued with allergies. I would never wish that on another dog. Ever. She is in pain frequently. My male is well bred and healthy, with no issues...because his breeder health tests every dog and breeds to standard. It's truly out of concern that we bring these issues up.

What area are you in? If you are willing to have other suggestions, I would be more than happy to help.


May I ask though, what made you decide this breeder was "it?"
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:48 pm

I don't see anyone getting heated at all, just stating simple fact. The whole point of breeding (and a breeder's main goal) should be to further contribute to the breed, to advance the breed, and make it better. By using a whooly female, your breeder is not doing this. The reason behind this is that siberians are a working dog. They pull sleds for a living. And they LOVE it. The problem with a whooly coat is that the snow doesn't slide off it the way it does in a shorter haired husky's coat. It gets matted and this can be detrimental to the dog itself. I realize you may not be using your husky to pull sleds in the snow, but at the same time, other people who may be purchasing from your breeder might and because the mother's coat wasn't to breed standard their puppies may have issues. On top of the fact that if this breeder doesn't care about coat type then they probably aren't testing for the important stuff (eyes and hips.) A dog with bad hips will be in pain for the rest of their lives. And if the breeder doesn't test for this issue, they will be breeding a bunch of dogs with this same issue, a bunch of dogs that are in pain constantly. How is that fair to the dogs?

I'm sorry you didn't get the welcome you were looking for when you joined. We really are only trying to help and just want you to have the happiest, healthiest puppy possible. If you feel you will get that from this breeder, then by all means go ahead and get your pup. No one here is going to hold that against you in the least!
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 3:59 pm

I am still pretty set on this breeder. I've seen her dogs and her home. The health guarantee is for three years. I have spoken to numerous people who have bought dogs from her, all of the dogs are healthy. She has also given me the phone number to her vet if I'd like to contact him.

I'm thankful for all of your help and will be certain to do more research before sending the deposit. Do you have any articles I can read on the woolies and their health?

I live in Indiana and am open to hearing about other breeders. Though I do hope this forum welcomes me and my little Mishka either way.
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:26 pm

http://www.itsahuskything.com/t8998-wooly-coatjust-to-get-this-convo-out-of-the-silly-husky-game-topic?highlight=wooly
This is a recent discussion we had on woolies here on the forum.

http://www.huskycolors.com/wooly.html
And this explains woolies a bit better I think.
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jordan.payton
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:34 pm

I've read both of these prior to joining this forum. Again, my dog will not be a show or working dog.


I recognize that essentially what has been said here is that if a breeder is overlooking or breeding a wooly intentionally then that breeder is also overlooking health issues.

My question is: Is there any information that shows a link between woolies and health issues other than what has been said in this forum?
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:45 pm

Of course isn't a link between that. Responsible breeders do OFA and CERF testing, chances are if your breeder is breeding not to better the breed(ie, breeding woolies), then why would they bother health testing.

A lot of breeders will say they do health testing, but they mean is that they have their dog seen by a Vet every year and given 100% health. That in no means is health testing.

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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:49 pm

I guess you are overlooking the obvious, if your breeder is willing to overlook an obvious outward flaw than what else is being overlooked? Have the hips been cleared at Normal or better? Have the eyes been cleared of any heredity defect/disease? Had both breeding candidates been tested for Burcelosis prior to breeding which is a deadly STD in dogs? Without testing for these things and keeping the breed standard in mind while breeding it is obvious the breeder doesn't care or isn't informed enough to be responsible. So willingly breeding outward flaws point to the fact that they didn't test or care to be certain there are no hidden health issues. But perhaps you don't see because you have already made up your mind and don't care to see the potential issues that lie ahead. All because the breeder isn't bothering to do the ethical things in the best interest of the breed.

Just because your dog may never be shown or enter into a working realm doesn't mean that standards of breeding should be any less. When I bought my first Siberian I never thought I would care about showing or working so why did it matter what I purchase? I got a lovely black and white Siberian male with the most atrocious rear end you could imagine. No big deal right? He was just a pet, right? Then we got our second, she had an awful front end, fallen pasterns. But who cares? She's 'just' a pet right? After our third, a rescue, came into our lives at 9mos old she already had advanced hip displaysia and arthritis. She lives her life in pain that could have been avoided if her breeder had bothered to check the parents prior to breeding. A couple more Siberians graced my life and we decided to start running our dogs in harness, something we never thought we'd do. In 9 years of owning Siberians we just wanted 'pets'....then it changed. My first two enjoy coming out with us, but due to their poor breeding they fatigue faster and end up in pain if they over do it. Is that fair to them? To the breed? Not in my opinion. So just because they are intended to be 'just pets' now doesn't mean life, plans, etc don't change. To see what these dogs were bred to do and accomplish it effortlessly is a privilege and gives one a great appreciation the importance maintaining the breed in health, quality, and functionality within the breed....even if it is in just pets or something more.
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Jennet&Embry
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PostSubject: Re: Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?   Tue Apr 16, 2013 4:55 pm

jordan.payton wrote:
I am still pretty set on this breeder. I've seen her dogs and her home. The health guarantee is for three years. I have spoken to numerous people who have bought dogs from her, all of the dogs are healthy. She has also given me the phone number to her vet if I'd like to contact him.

I'm thankful for all of your help and will be certain to do more research before sending the deposit. Do you have any articles I can read on the woolies and their health?

I live in Indiana and am open to hearing about other breeders. Though I do hope this forum welcomes me and my little Mishka either way.

examples of a BYB selling woolies: http://burchkennelclub.jimdo.com/ I would NEVER buy a puppy from this breeder in a million years. There is no health testing, dogs are extremely out of standard, they breed for wooly coats and breeding with CKC reg. Another huge red flag on this one is "-1 LITTER OF MINI HUSKIES DUE IN FALL 2013 $750-$1000. PLEASE EMAIL ME FOR MORE INFO! -TAKING A WAITING LIST-" No way.

I'd look into calling up Mysticstar Siberians (http://mysticstar.home.insightbb.com/) They're reputable, breed show dogs, but do sell puppies off to pet homes and do health testing.
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Can you tell if a newborn will be wooly?

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