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 Head Pieces and Ear Sets

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Wy Renegade
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Wy Renegade

Join date : 2013-03-04
Location : Wyoming

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PostSubject: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 4:07 pm

So yesterday in the philosophical thread on breeding, the terms head pieces and ear sets was brought up. While I'm sort of familiar with ear sets, I'm not sure I could truly point out a great ear set vs. a good or not so good ear set. And I have no idea on head pieces although from what was said in the thread perhaps it has to do with eye/head shape? So for those of us not quite so familar with the show ring I was wondering if those of you who are could do a few educational posts regarding these? If you all could include some pictures as examples, that would be wonderful as well.
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mbarnard0429
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mbarnard0429

Female Join date : 2011-08-07
Location : Michigan

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 5:28 pm

That was me! Haha give me a second and I will post. Smile
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HuskyMom09
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Location : Spokane WA

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 5:56 pm

Well I'll admit it I'm an ear snob- though it's Denali's fault! He has spoiled me entirely with is (IMO) nearly perfect ears- I prefer a smaller triangular ear that is well furred and thick. This is the ear that will be more resilient to the arctic temperatures these dogs were bred for. I will post 2 head shots of my Denali- though he does have his flaws, IMO he still has a very nice headpiece- The first shot is a year ago to show how his headpiece is still developing.

Head Pieces and Ear Sets 217838_373058216095746_377993605_n
Head Pieces and Ear Sets 603979_463081093760124_311790304_n
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Wy Renegade
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Wy Renegade

Join date : 2013-03-04
Location : Wyoming

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:00 pm

@HuskyMom09 wrote:
Well I'll admit it I'm an ear snob- though it's Denali's fault! He has spoiled me entirely with is (IMO) nearly perfect ears- I prefer a smaller triangular ear that is well furred and thick. This is the ear that will be more resilient to the arctic temperatures these dogs were bred for. I will post 2 head shots of my Denali- though he does have his flaws, IMO he still has a very nice headpiece- The first shot is a year ago to show how his headpiece is still developing.

Head Pieces and Ear Sets 217838_373058216095746_377993605_n
Head Pieces and Ear Sets 603979_463081093760124_311790304_n

Lani I'll have to look at your pictures once I get home this evening, as I can't view them at work, but doesn't ear set also refer to the placement on the head and how they are "carried?" Also can you explain exactly what you are referencing when you say headpiece. Thanks for the pictures and the explaination.
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Wy Renegade
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Wy Renegade

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Location : Wyoming

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:01 pm

mheath0429 wrote:
That was me! Haha give me a second and I will post. Smile

I'm looking forward to it Wink.
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:04 pm

The headpiece in my mind is the 'total package' of the head, measurement of tip of the nose to stop should be equal to stop to occiput, is there adequate stop or too much/not enough, the eye placement and shape, the outer tip of the eye should be inline with the tip of the ear (placement of the ear), those are the components to what makes the headpiece IMO-
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Wy Renegade
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Wy Renegade

Join date : 2013-03-04
Location : Wyoming

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:17 pm

@HuskyMom09 wrote:
The headpiece in my mind is the 'total package' of the head, measurement of tip of the nose to stop should be equal to stop to occiput, is there adequate stop or too much/not enough, the eye placement and shape, the outer tip of the eye should be inline with the tip of the ear (placement of the ear), those are the components to what makes the headpiece IMO-

Excellent! Thank you. Based on Megan's post yesterday, I was pretty sure it had to do with the eyes and head somehow, but all a google reference brought up was some very stange headbands or something LOL. So I'm assuming because I can't see your pictures, but I assume to access the headpiece one needs a straight on headshot and a side shot to view the proportions and degree of stop?
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mbarnard0429
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Location : Michigan

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:20 pm

Head Pieces and Ear Sets 18923db4-1ef0-43fe-9005-c5dbce51d283_zps27fe5f46

This photo is old, cato was only 10 months old.


Take a look at Cato's head. He's got well defined markings, common in Karnovanda. He also has nicely set oblique, tiny, dark eyes. Ears are set erectly on the head when alert, and small with just enough fur to keep them warm in the snow.

Head shape is nice, seems a bit thin but will fill out as he ages. Muzzle is a little longer, but as he has grown up it has evened out. His stop was not well defined when younger, now it is more prominent.

When all of these things are thrown together it makes it easier to point out a "type"

If you go to http://www.karnovandakennels.com you will see very similar head pieces.
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:21 pm

I like a straight on shot with ears at full attention, a profile shot as well to see the stop, when evaluating the head of a dog-
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:24 pm

To me the most distinctive features that scream "Karnovanda" are the eyes as Megan points out they are well shaped, obliquely set, and small, and the ears. Karnovanda has 'cutsie' little ears. Smile
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Wy Renegade
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Wy Renegade

Join date : 2013-03-04
Location : Wyoming

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 7:19 pm

Thank you Megan, I tried that site earlier today off one of the other threads, and for some reason only the first two links are showing any pictures. The "dogs" page stays blank. Playtime shows quite a few good pictures.

If you don't mind me playing along, can you point out where my observations might be in error?

These are older pictures as well ~ around 7 or 8 months.

Head Pieces and Ear Sets Mystinthesnow10Nov2012_zps3e1cd7bf

In this picture the positioning at alert appears to be good, although the ears themselves are a perhaps a bit too large at this point. They appear nicely furred to me as well. Her eyes are nicely shaped and set. The alignment between the outer tip of the eye and the tip of the ear appears good as well. Her mussel in this shot appears pretty good to me.

The profile is actually about a month earlier, so around 6 months.

Head Pieces and Ear Sets ProfileontheMountain03Sept20121_zpsb452be90

Again the position appears to be good, although the ears themselves also appear a bit too large. The stop to me appears nicely developed, and the distances from nose to stop and stop to occiput appears good as well.

In these early pictures her markings are pretty distinct as well, although they are perhaps less so now at fourteen months. I'll have to check ear size again this evening, but it stands in my mind that they still are a bit larger in proportion than Cato's at this point.

Appreciate the responses and help ladies!
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seattlesibe
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seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 7:37 pm

Is there much variation in the breed in the angle formed in how the head sits on the neck? Is this angle part of the head piece evaluation? (Think Bassett Hound vs. Pointer for a stark contrast).
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Mishka'sMom
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Join date : 2012-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 7:52 pm

I like the look of your dogs, Lani. I will have to find another sample that I find interesting and post it later...on to dog class!
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyThu May 02, 2013 8:22 pm

@seattlesibe wrote:
Is there much variation in the breed in the angle formed in how the head sits on the neck? Is this angle part of the head piece evaluation? (Think Bassett Hound vs. Pointer for a stark contrast).

That's not exactly part of the 'head study' of the Siberian Husky, though in total dog yes a pretty significant consideration- you want some neck but not too much and you don't want a head that's planted on the shoulders either.

@Mishka'sMom wrote:
I like the look of your dogs, Lani. I will have to find another sample that I find interesting and post it later...on to dog class!

Thank you!
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Wy Renegade
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Join date : 2013-03-04
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 12:34 am

Lani if you don't mind my asking, you stated that Denali has his faults? Do you consider any of them to be in the head piece? Now that I can see the pictures, I can see what you are referring to in regards to the ears. Neither you nor Megan made any response to my observations, does that mean that they are somewhat close or totally off base LOL?
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 1:21 am

Every dog has their faults- to date there has not been a 'perfect' dog bred. But yes some of Denali's fault's lie in his headpiece. Though minimal it is something I have to keep in those faults in mind as we move into a breeding program. Some of his faults in his headpiece include his eyes being too round and not as oblique as 'ideal'. The next would be his nose to stop is slightly (ever so) shorter than his stop to occiput. Does this 'make or break' the overall dog? No. Will it keep him from being put up over another dog, unlikely. But as an ethical (future) breeder I need to be able to see and acknowledge my own dogs faults before I can truly be able to move forward with breeding plans.

As for your own questions/observations on your dog. I never look at puppies that are over 8 weeks old and before at minimum 15 months of age. Just too much weirdness happens in growth and development you can't truly evaluate the dog. IMO-
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seattlesibe
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seattlesibe

Male Join date : 2013-02-05
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 1:32 am

Wow, his eyes don't look round at all but rather nicely almond. Can you find a pic of perfect Husky eyes?
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 1:35 am

As he matures his eyes have become more almond- you can see the shape of his eye more round in his younger pics. To look for the 'perfect' almond eye that is obliquely set you should look at almost any Karnovanda show dog on the circuit today- Karnovanda's Tenzing has a wonderful eye...amongst his many lovely attributes IMO.
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wpskier222
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wpskier222

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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 7:03 am

I love Tenzing! He is so beautiful! I have only seen pix though, never in person.
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 7:05 am

I also love Finn.
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 10:54 am

I've had the pleasure of showing against Tenzing numerous times and had the opportunity to see Finn at Nationals. He was a bit out of coat at that show but what a lovely moving picture Smile Finn is more my 'type' when it comes to those lines. Tenzing's coat is a bit overdone for my liking but he is still a lovely dog
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Wy Renegade
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Wy Renegade

Join date : 2013-03-04
Location : Wyoming

Head Pieces and Ear Sets Empty
PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 10:55 am

@HuskyMom09 wrote:
Every dog has their faults- to date there has not been a 'perfect' dog bred. But yes some of Denali's fault's lie in his headpiece. Though minimal it is something I have to keep in those faults in mind as we move into a breeding program. Some of his faults in his headpiece include his eyes being too round and not as oblique as 'ideal'. The next would be his nose to stop is slightly (ever so) shorter than his stop to occiput. Does this 'make or break' the overall dog? No. Will it keep him from being put up over another dog, unlikely. But as an ethical (future) breeder I need to be able to see and acknowledge my own dogs faults before I can truly be able to move forward with breeding plans.

As for your own questions/observations on your dog. I never look at puppies that are over 8 weeks old and before at minimum 15 months of age. Just too much weirdness happens in growth and development you can't truly evaluate the dog. IMO-

Please excuse me if that came across wrong - I simply was curious as to what you perceive as his faults and if any of them were in the head piece or if they were else were. Personally I don't think that anyone will ever breed the "perfect" dog, because if you put two Siberian breeders in the same room and asked them about their "perfect" dog you are going to get two different answers. I was in no way, shape or form trying to imply that your dog was not a beautiful example of the breed, I simply was looking to learn. I do appreciate your being willing to share what you see as some of the faults.

Thats rather interesting about the not looking at dogs from 8 weeks to 15 months, do you also not show dogs during this time period then? Please Understand I'm not trying to access my own dog for show potential, I'm simply trying to get a sense of how you go about looking at these things. I really don't know much about the show side of things, but my goal is to learn. I never really intended to show, but now it looks as though we are headed in that direction, so I'm absorb all I can.
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptyFri May 03, 2013 11:04 am

I will show them as long as they are 'balanced' when the go through those god awful all legs phase they tend not to move well at all. Every puppy goes through a semi-ugly phase, all ears and elongated face which makes them hard to evaluate when it comes to ear placement and facial balance. I did put Denali away for a few months between 6 months and 10 months, he was growing in such a way his movement was horrible and there is no reason to show that. He recently went through another stage of development where he fell apart again between 18-24 months so this upcoming show will be only his second show of 2013.
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eddycaaa
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptySat May 04, 2013 12:02 am

I'm curious what you all (mainly Lani and Megan and other show enthusiasts) think of her head set:

Head Pieces and Ear Sets 164203_615286825152981_1066513699_n

Head Pieces and Ear Sets 537285_615289231819407_815296763_n

I just love this girl. I havent met her but she looks stunning in photos. Her ears are really cute
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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: Head Pieces and Ear Sets   Head Pieces and Ear Sets EmptySat May 04, 2013 12:10 am

I like her ear set a lot.

I'm a serious ear snob.
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