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 Dog food: more protien VS less protien

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nolesooner
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PostSubject: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 11:18 am

I am wondering if more protien is a bit tougher on Husky's stomachs. Do you think foods like Nurto Ultra or Taste of the Wild might be better than CORE, BB, or Orgin? Nutro Ultra and TOTW have about 27% protien where as those other three I mentioned have over 35%. Do you think it's bad on the tummys of husky's that already have a tough time with upset stomachs?
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Huskyluv
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Female Join date : 2009-06-23
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 12:36 pm

I don't think the protein percentage is so much the issue but rather the source and quality of the protein that should be taken into account. This is why the number doesn't mean as much to me as the ingredient list and knowing where a company sources it's ingredients.

For instance two foods may carry the same protein percentage but the one sourced with good quality meat will be far better than the one loaded with cheap vegetable based protein like corn, peas, or soy. And then you have to consider two foods both meat based protein with similar protein percentages may have meat with vastly different quality. For example one might use free range, antibiotic and hormone free meat while another uses antibiotic and hormone treated, sometimes sick, factory farmed meat from a less than desirable facility...or worse, from China. And then there's the issue of what proteins your individual dog does well on.

So again, I strongly recommend you focus more on the ingredients, their source and quality, manufacturer, the company and it's practices, and how your individual dog does on a food more than the actual protein percentage number on the bag.

I would recommend Orijen over all the foods you listed, Acana being a great cheaper alternative. I highly recommend Fromm after Orijen and Acana. Second to that Blue Buffalo. I used to be a big fan of Wellness Core until they switched manufacturers. TOTW I am not a fan of the manufacturer but it and Core are both decent foods if their manufacturer is of little importance to you. I would choose Core over TOTW when it comes to ingredients any day. Nutro is horrible and I wouldn't even consider it.

BTW, moved this topic to Nutrition and Feeding where it is more appropriate.

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nolesooner
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 1:59 pm

Just curious....but why have you heard that Nurto Ultra or the brand nutro is horrible? The people at the pet store mostly swear by it. I know a person who manages for pet supermarket and he has always said that's a good food as well as the people at Petsmart. They say it is all manufactured at ONE plant, so you get the exact same thing in every bag.

I'm just wondering what you've heard. Thanks.

And I don't have a costco here, so I'm not sure that I can find Acana. They may have that at petsmart, I don't know.
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Huskyluv
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 2:20 pm

Acana is not from Costco, you should be able to find it wherever Orijen is also sold as they're from the same company.

Regarding Nutro, it is a combination of experience with the food and research over the years. I do my own homework as I strongly suggest everyone do for themselves rather than blindly following the recommendations of others. I don't even want you to take my advice. I wish people would question everything, especially when it comes to something as important as what you feed your dog day in and day out. Do your own research and decide for yourself.

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Mobezilla
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 2:23 pm

The vet tells me to feed Science Diet and the pet stores tell me to feed Pedigree. They all swear by it but I swear by my TOTW. Like Valerie said, I looked around at ingredients and companies and recalls and found the one I liked best.
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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 2:37 pm

This is one of the many reasons why I don't feed kibble - especially nutro.

http://www.fda.gov/animalveterinary/safetyhealth/recallswithdrawals/ucm129575.htm
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nolesooner
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 3:19 pm

The problem I find with doing the research, especially on the "internet" is that there are so many different opinions out there. Recalls may indeed happen, but that doesn't mean that the problem won't be fixed.

I have been told that the most important things to look at are the first two or three ingredients of the dog food.

At this point, I just don't know. It's a bit frustrating because I don't know who exactly to trust. Which is why I have my dog on Orijen....but I still don't know if that is the best thing for her....and it's so dang expensive.
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Huskyluv
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 3:35 pm

Stuart, there is no one best food. It's really about what your dog does best on within your feeding preferences and budget.

I can't tell you more than to keep researching. You won't find all you need to know in a day, or even a few days, and I highly doubt you'll find research on Nutro in a book so I'm afraid the internet is where it's at. You will find arguments for and against pretty much anything you research, ultimately you'll have to determine why people are for and against something and which side you fall on when you determine what the issues/concerns are versus what is more important to YOU, not everyone else.

It sounds like you want someone to tell you what's the best thing to feed and it just won't happen. In my personal opinion, you are feeding the best kibble on the market today. If your dog doesn't thrive on it and/or it's too expensive for you then obviously it's not the best choice for the both of you and you'll need to explore other options.

I have been researching pet food for years and continue to learn to this very day. My chi girls came to me on Nutro when I adopted them which is what prompted my investigation into Nutro in the first place years ago. I was completely put off by everything I learned and kept my girls on Nutro for the first two weeks they were with me (to help lessen the stress of being rehomed) and switched them off Nutro promptly after they were settled enough in their new home.

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nolesooner
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 4:23 pm

Fair enough, Valerie. I understand what you are saying. It's not that I want someone to tell me what the best food is for me and my dog, I am just not sure how to exactly tell if my dog is "thriving" on a particular food. She has some watery stools and some normal stools. She poops about 5 times a day, which I'm not sure is normal. I also don't know if all her poop should be totally solid or not. Somtimes it looks like she strains, but I can't tell for sure.

All in all, I just want the best for my pup. Its tough when they can't communicate with you.

Thanks for the advice and I will continue to do my research and not take people at their word. It's hard not to trust someone though, like a trainer or a vet. I feel like they would know what is the best kind of food out there, and what isn't the best.

For example....why would a vet push science diet when I have heard horrible things about it?
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Tika
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 4:31 pm

Quote :
For example....why would a vet push science diet when I have heard horrible things about it?

The simple answer is they get kick backs from the sales.

It's like when you go see a doctor for back pain. And he prescribes you medicine A.

When you ask him how come he doesn't recommend Medicine B, C, D, E, or F all of which pretty much do the same thing he can give you any reason in the world. Most of the time though it just comes down to a deal he has with the company that produces Medicine A and either gets funding from them or a monetary reward based on sales.

That's why you need to ASK for the generic.


It's a simplistic and cynical point of view......... but that's pretty much it in a nut shell.

~Chris~

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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 4:33 pm

How much are you feeding? I fed acana for a while and I am very confident that it is a good kibble, never fed Orijen due to cost.

Trust your gut. Watch the coat,is it shiny and soft? Does your dog have energy and is relatively healthy, with minor sickness? These things are important.


The reason vets suggest science diet is 1.they are rarely trained in nutrition, and if they are it's by purina, royal canin or science diet. 2. They get an amazing amount of kickbacks.
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 4:49 pm

I was just searching protein issues.....Smile

Related note, can anyone speak to the importance of alternating protein sources in a diet? Granted we feed all raw, but are protein sources different enough to warrant an occasional switch? Specifically I am speaking of turkey, chicken, beef, and bison, which are the meat sources we have good regular access to.

I know this thread pertains to kibble but the core issue is the same, it would seem.

Thanks!
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mbarnard0429
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 5:04 pm

It is different Jeff, with raw we must rotate sources. I have heard it best to rotate between about 5 sources, to be sure the dog is getting the nutrients he/she needs. I belief the theory behind it is that different meat comes from different sources - some grain fed, some with antibiotics, some with hormones. By rotating you are counteracting the effects of some negatives found in meat. That being said, I know I feed grass fed, cage free and antibiotic-hormone free meats. I am a stickler about it. I still try to rotate at least 5 proteins.

I don't do gradual switches, I just give different protein sources at different times. Last night my dogs had duck with mercury-free salmon oil and 400 I.U. Vitamin E, tonight they will get veal heart and half a turkey neck. with a few carrots because they like them and coconut oil, because its a miracle oil.
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redraidersrule
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 5:10 pm

Im also a newbie when it comes to this. Is their a direct correlation between stools and protein? ie, is the stool going to be firmer if less protein and more watery if more protein. My wife said she heard this from a vet and he suggested we go a little less protein if the stool is loose. Of course this comes with some assumptions, lets assume the puppy is not overeating and lets also assume the puppy is fairly active. I have heard nothing but good things from Origin and Acana. Like Stuart said Orijen is quite pricey, and has more protein than Acana, which is the reason Im thinking of switching to Acana. Im of course still researching too. And since I have only had the puppies for about 6 weeks I havent been able to tell a difference yet between energy levels, coat shine etc.
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nolesooner
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 5:21 pm

mheath0429 wrote:
How much are you feeding? I fed acana for a while and I am very confident that it is a good kibble, never fed Orijen due to cost.

Trust your gut. Watch the coat,is it shiny and soft? Does your dog have energy and is relatively healthy, with minor sickness? These things are important.


The reason vets suggest science diet is 1.they are rarely trained in nutrition, and if they are it's by purina, royal canin or science diet. 2. They get an amazing amount of kickbacks.

She gets about a cup and a half a day, so 3/4 cup per meal.

Her coat is shiny and very soft. She has lots of energy and no sickness that I can see except maybe a bladder infection.

Only thing I see as a problem is her peeing so much and her stools still being watery about 33% of the time.
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 5:30 pm

Great, thanks Megan. The path we are starting to take is having a base food, right now it's bison and it has been chicken, and then supplementing a new meat once or twice a week along with the occasional organ/bone treat. The base food we give him has bone and organ and some fruits/veggies mixed into it already. Most of his training treats and out-and-about treats are salmon or snap peas, which he loves.

I imagine a switch from chicken to bison is more drastic/beneficial than a switch from chicken to turkey?
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 5:46 pm

My partner is a molecular biologist and whenever the issue of variation comes up he insists that molecularly the differences in the structure of the proteins amongst animal sources is the same. That may be the case....but I am trying to advocate for looking at them holistically in the midst of the other nutrients and compounds present in conjunction with the specific proteins from different animal sources.

Even if the protein molecular structure is the same in chicken or bison, eating a chicken or a bison is not the same. That's how I see it I guess.
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Huskyluv
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 6:45 pm

Kevin, I would not say there is a correlation between stool firmness and protein percentage. I've never heard anything like that and it doesn't really make sense to me. If a certain protein does not agree with a dog then changing proteins will help. Likewise some foods are too rich for some dogs which has more to do with the food overall and less to do with protein percentage. Like some dogs do great on some high protein foods but not so great on other equally high protein foods. Consistently loose stools is a good reason to try a different food, but I wouldn't consider it a reason to specifically search out a lower protein food.

Stuart, 5 BM's a day seems a bit excessive considering how much she eats per day which is quite reasonable. Does she get a lot of treats in between meals? In addition to the things Megan mentioned to look out for, stool quality can also be a good indicator of how a dog is doing on a food. Excessive BM's can indicate overfeeding or that the dog is not digesting or utilizing the food as well as it should. Stools should be consistently firm most of the time. Watery stool 1/3 of the time is far too much to be normal. But there are a number of things that can cause loose stool from parasites to food. Has your dog been cleared medically speaking to rule that out as a reason for the loose stool? The same way food can be the issue, it could also be treats or people food if anyone is slipping him any, or something the dog picks up on walks/when out and about. I find it best to eliminate all extra sources of food in a situation where loose stool is an issue and you're trying to determine if it is being caused by the main food. Orijen is too rich for some dogs and therefore may not be the best option for every individual. It'll really be trial and error until you find what works best for Juno.

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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 9:21 pm

Thanks Val, one more question. I've seen many people say this, but what exactly does too rich mean? I always took that to mean too much protein.
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 9:26 pm

Too rich tends to be a common catch all phrase used when a food doesn't agree with a dog. It could be due to many things and I wouldn't associate with too much protein necessarily.

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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Tue May 14, 2013 9:30 pm

Is is sorta like having two pieces of kibble of the exact same size, but one has 90% filler stuff while the other has 70% filler stuff? The 90% being richer, or perhaps too rich?
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Huskyluv
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Wed May 15, 2013 10:10 am

@seattlesibe wrote:
Is is sorta like having two pieces of kibble of the exact same size, but one has 90% filler stuff while the other has 70% filler stuff? The 90% being richer, or perhaps too rich?

I wouldn't say that. It's really open to interpretation and the term used loosely. Generally the term is thrown around when a dog does not do well on a better food versus a lower quality food, but is not due to protein percentage.

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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Wed May 15, 2013 10:15 am

Ok Val, thanks. I was thinking of it in terms of how higher levels of solubles create higher viscosity in liquids.
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nolesooner
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Wed May 15, 2013 10:57 am

@Huskyluv wrote:
Stuart, 5 BM's a day seems a bit excessive considering how much she eats per day which is quite reasonable. Does she get a lot of treats in between meals? In addition to the things Megan mentioned to look out for, stool quality can also be a good indicator of how a dog is doing on a food. Excessive BM's can indicate overfeeding or that the dog is not digesting or utilizing the food as well as it should. Stools should be consistently firm most of the time. Watery stool 1/3 of the time is far too much to be normal. But there are a number of things that can cause loose stool from parasites to food. Has your dog been cleared medically speaking to rule that out as a reason for the loose stool? The same way food can be the issue, it could also be treats or people food if anyone is slipping him any, or something the dog picks up on walks/when out and about. I find it best to eliminate all extra sources of food in a situation where loose stool is an issue and you're trying to determine if it is being caused by the main food. Orijen is too rich for some dogs and therefore may not be the best option for every individual. It'll really be trial and error until you find what works best for Juno.

Maybe watery is a bit harsh to describe....some of them are just not very solid...kinda like soft serve ice cream (ewwww, sorry for the description). The only other things she gets to eat are her training treats which are VERY small. She may get a fair amount of them a day...maybe 5-10 depending on how much we are working on specific things for my class. I will give my food a little more time and if she isn't pooping totally solid in another few weeks, I will start something else. I just don't want to feed my dog a crappy food....but at the same time, I don't want to be a "dog food snob" either if you get what I'm saying.

She has been cleared of any diseases and I make sure she doesn't get fed from the table or that she doesn't pick up anything on our walks. My dog just has strange issues. She pees too much, in my opinion and her poops are just not quite what I would want.

She is in a crate all day while I'm at work....but that shouldn't have an effect on her pooping/peeing habits should it? I feed her when I leave at 630-700 and feed her when I get home around 400-430.
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PostSubject: Re: Dog food: more protien VS less protien   Wed May 15, 2013 11:14 am

No, I wouldn't expect her crate time to affect her pot tying frequency or consistency. I'd give it more time like you said and change things up if you don't see improvement after some time.

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