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 What do I do? (Update)

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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

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PostSubject: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyTue Jun 11, 2013 10:41 am

So the other night I came to realize Lucian is possessive over his crate.  I was gently petting his paw while he was laying in it, and he bit me.  Not hard enough to break the skin, but it left a red mark well into the next day.  He gave me no warning what so ever.  No growl, nothing.  The sound and bit came all at the same time.  I knew he had problems with food related items, and we've been working on drop it, and leave it.  But yesterday morning he was laying on the kitchen floor while I was making a sandwich, my 4 yr old daughter came in, and started to pet him.  A few second later I heard him make just about the same sound he did when he bit me, and I turn around to find he had bit my daughters hand, and actually held onto it for a few seconds.  
I've contacted a trainer, but it could be a few days before I even hear back from them.  In the mean time I'm keeping Lucian and my daughter apart.  I have him gated in my kitchen.  I feel bad for him, and I'm worried this will just make this issue worse.  But I can't be on top of them both 24/7, and even if I am I probably won't be able to stop another bite.  Once my daughter goes to bed I let him have free roam of the house like normal.  
I have no idea why he bit her while he was just laying in the kitchen.  She's pet him there before.  There was no food involved.  If this trainer can't help me I'm going to be forced to give him up.  I can't have a dog I don't trust around my daughter.  I've been a complete wreck since all this has happened.  I'm afraid he's going to cause some real damage to her if I don't keep them apart.   Sad


Last edited by Keyda81 on Tue Jul 30, 2013 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyThu Jun 13, 2013 5:13 pm

Well here is a small update for anyone who read my post, but didn't respond.  I've contacted a trainer, and Lucian starts his private sessions in August.  For now I'm going to research as much as possible and try to work with him on these unwanted behaviors.
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wpskier222
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wpskier222

Female Join date : 2013-02-11
Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyThu Jun 13, 2013 5:32 pm

I'm sorry I didn't respond, but I have no experience with aggression and I didn't want to give you bad advice. I hope your trainer can help you, if not, find another because I'm sure there is someone who can. I guess one thing to think about is a vet visit. He might have a sore spot for some reason. I know pain can trigger a bite out of the blue, did your daughter touch the same paw. Either way I hope everything works out. I grew up with an aggressive dog, and he bit me several times. I still loved him to death though.
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Sheba&Kennedy
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Sheba&Kennedy

Female Join date : 2012-08-13
Location : Nebraska

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyThu Jun 13, 2013 5:58 pm

I never even saw this post!

What kind of trainer did you contact?? I would think he needs a behavior based trainer, with positive methods. I could be wrong, but that is what I did with Sheba and she is leaps and bounds different.

For now, remove anything he would consider guarding. I would keep him tethered to you so you can watch his every move. Treat him when he is being calm and give him a verbal correction if you see him start to fixate on anything. Normally they go into this "trance" as I call it. Sheba stares unblinking, her body goes super stiff, and she just stops moving. I give her an AH AH and I might clap to get her out of her trance, and then I will treat her when she goes back to normal.

Work on trading games with him. Keep it to things that are NOT overly interesting to him. You don't want to over load his senses and set him up for failure.

I hope the training goes well and your family can move past this.
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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

What do I do? (Update) Empty
PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyThu Jun 13, 2013 6:35 pm

I contacted K9 Connection in Buffalo.  They are so booked the soonest the can get Lucian in is August.  A few of the sessions will be right here at home.  The main problem with him is he gives no warning before the bite.  He hasn't broken skin at all.  The majority of the bites happened while there was food involved.  He's nipped my daughter twice when she went to take something away from him that he got out of the garbage.  This last time he nipped her I'm not entirely sure why.  It may have happened because I tossed him a piece of turkey a few minutes before my daughter came in.  Maybe he thought more food was coming.  When he bit me he was laying in his crate.  So in general I'm pretty sure it all stems from guarding.  He's fine with my daughter in the backyard, and any other room in my house aside from the kitchen, where he eats his food, and his crate is kept. 
I'm just going to keep them apart for the time being.  It gives me peace of mind.  I'm afraid that he may cause actual damage to my daughter, so for the sake of not walking around in my house like I'm on pins and needles I'm keeping the apart while they are in the house.  I let him have free roam of the house after she goes to bed.  I've been taking him for nice long walks to keep him occupied.  I feel bad leaving him locked up in my kitchen most of the day.  He won't run around the yard right now either, cause it's flooded, and he hates water.  He'll get a break from jail this weekend, hubby and my daughter are taking a trip to Pennsylvania for the weekend.  So I'll be home working with him all weekend.  I'm just hoping with all my might that the trainer can help me solve this problem.  It would simply break my heart to have to give him up.  He's my baby boy.
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katiesham
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katiesham

Female Join date : 2012-08-08
Location : Atlanta, Georgia

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyThu Jun 13, 2013 7:05 pm

Where did your daughter pet him? Could it be at all about him not liking a certain spot touched? 

Regardless of the cause, I hope you guys get to a peaceful point soon! Hoping for the best!
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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

What do I do? (Update) Empty
PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyThu Jun 13, 2013 11:20 pm

@katiesham wrote:
Where did your daughter pet him? Could it be at all about him not liking a certain spot touched? 

Regardless of the cause, I hope you guys get to a peaceful point soon! Hoping for the best!
I didn't see where she pet him.  I was at the counter, and turned around when I heard him make the noise that goes right along with the bite.  All I seen was her right hand in his mouth.  Far as I can tell he doesn't have any certain areas he doesn't like touched.  I've toweled off every part of his body with no problems, other than him wanting to play bite.  I really think it was associated with food.  He follows me into the kitchen just about every time I go in there.  I consider it to be my fault for tossing him pieces of turkey every once in a while.  He picks up on things real quick.  He's smart so I'm hopeful that he can get through training, and the behavior issues can be resolved.  I've been reading like crazy about resource and food guarding and I'm going to work with him, so we have a good base to start with when we see the professional trainer.  I just wish it was sooner.  I feel bad for locking him up in the kitchen all the time, but my daughters safety is my number 1 concern.  I'll do everything I can to keep him, but if it comes down to it there is a local husky rescue that I can get a hold of.  He won't end up craigslist, or at the SPCA.  I can't let that happen to him.
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wpskier222
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wpskier222

Female Join date : 2013-02-11
Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 9:52 am

Is there a way you could block him out of the kitchen and still keep your daughter safe? If it is possible space wise, I think it makes more sense to keep him away from the kitchen.
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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

What do I do? (Update) Empty
PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 10:34 am

@wpskier222 wrote:
Is there a way you could block him out of the kitchen and still keep your daughter safe? If it is possible space wise, I think it makes more sense to keep him away from the kitchen.

I thought about that, but there's no where else for me to keep him that doesn't block some part of the house my daughter needs access to. The upstairs is completely off limits to him, cause of my 2 cats. That area is there's. My living room, dining room, and den are all pretty much in a straight line going from the front to the back of the house. The kitchen is on the right side.
I'm going to work on his food aggression first, and then on his location guarding. I'm hoping the next and a half flies by, lol. He'll get a break from jail this weekend when hubby and my daughter leave for Pennsylvania.
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Eresh
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Adult
Eresh

Female Join date : 2012-10-06
Location : Space Coast, Florida

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 10:50 am

Sorry I didn't see this post earlier. I have the same concerns with my kids. How old is your daughter? Mine are 2 and 7. Ever since Nanook bit my hubby (as in he really should have gotten stitches and now has a severe scar on his arm...) I just could not let him around my toddler (and my older one only with the strictest supervision). He's always been a perfect gentleman before and since, but we did consult a behaviorist. However, no amount of professional help can make me let go of that mental image of what if that had been my 2 year old instead of a 200 lb man. I am in the process of interviewing a possible new home for him (she knows his history, has tons of husky experience, and her kids are grown up) And now I am starting to worry about Luci. A few weeks ago my younger daughter and I were playing with her puzzle in the living room when Luci (who was calmly laying across the room) came charging over with a full on growl/hackles up/teeth bared. She was going for my daughter's hand that was holding a puzzle piece but my own arm got in the way (it was all I had to block it with in a split second...) I could see it in her face the moment she realized it was MY arm going into her mouth. She immediately backed off, but I hate to think of what if I hadn't been standing right there. Anyway, I don't have any advice other than consulting a behavior specialist for the dog. (Though like I said before, it did nothing to help my own mommy mental images... perhaps I need therapy too!)
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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 1:07 pm

My daughter is going to be 4 in a few weeks. And I know what you mean with the mental image thing. I can still clear as day see her hand in his mouth. I'm just really concerned that he may do damage next time. He hasn't broken the skin, or done more than one bite at a time. He bites once and that's it. If he would of actually inflicted wounds, he more than likely wouldn't be here right now. I figure there is hope for him cause he hasn't broke the skin when biting. It seems like it's more of a "back off" warning. I just wish he would give some other signal rather than going straight into a nip.

Wow Luci would have scared the crap out of me. Lucian has never done anything like that. Really any dog can have behavior issues. We run the risk of injury having kids and dogs in the same house. It's really going to take me a long time to trust him again. I just get a horrible thought if it were to happen again, it could be a lot worse.
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Eresh
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Eresh

Female Join date : 2012-10-06
Location : Space Coast, Florida

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 1:21 pm

This site seems to have some great advice about recognizing signs of stress and aggression  http://www.doggonesafe.com/
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simplify
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simplify

Female Join date : 2012-08-02
Location : Louisiana

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 1:45 pm

Mishka is 5 months old and has snapped at kids. I don't trust him 100% around them and I don't understand why at such a young age he seems to get worked up around them. I know their energy level is really different from most adults and that can trigger a reaction. 

I think it's honestly more him wanting to play with them than anything but it has happened when a kid just walked up to him while he was laying down and pet him. After if the kid was just standing next to him he snapped at his hand. Thankfully it's never been anything major but it's something that I need to stop because when my fiance and I get married his daughter (6) will be at the house every other weekend and I can't have Mishka locked up all the time or when she's in the living room watching TV and not sitting still / playing, have Mishka was to go after her.

I'm going to ask the trainer we are doing puppy class with about that tomorrow and hope that she can give me some advice.


I really hope things go well with you and Lucian and I truly hope you don't have to give him up. Sad

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Keyda81
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Adult
Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 11:31 pm

A little more insight as to what is going on in Lucian's head. I took him to the pet store with me to get him a prong collar, he's horrible on walks, and I've tried all the anti-pull things, and they don't work. One of the guys working there took it upon himself to try the collar on Lucian. Well Lu didn't like the guy touching him, especially around the neck, and let it be known. He growled, and fussed, and when the guy didn't back off, he bit him. No breaking of the skin, or anything like that. The guy still didn't back off. I insisted on putting the collar on him finally, and Lucian was completely fine with me putting it on. Several times in fact cause we had to keep removing links. But what dawned on me after all that went on was Lucian gave this guy several warnings before the actual bite. He didn't do that with me or my daughter. He also didn't make the strange yelp/bark noise at the guy like he did with me and my daughter. I wish he would of given myself and my daughter some warning before he actually bit. I really don't think he intends to harm anyone. It's just his way of saying back off I guess. I'm still going to keep him and my daughter apart while they are in the house. We've never had a problem in the yard, they play together just fine. I know he doesn't have an aversion to her either. They were in the yard for a few minutes today for the first time in a few days, and all he wanted to do was play with her. He got all excited that there wasn't a gate between them. So fingers crossed nothing serious happens between now and training. Thanks for the support everyone. I've really needed it. I've tried talking to my mother about it, but she freaks out, and tells me to get rid of him. She even told me to have him put to sleep!pale We just land up arguing and yelling at each other about it. So she's just stressed me out even more over the whole thing.
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Sheba&Kennedy
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Sheba&Kennedy

Female Join date : 2012-08-13
Location : Nebraska

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyFri Jun 14, 2013 11:36 pm

Lucian is probably picking up on your stress levels right now. Try your hardest to stay calm around him because when these guys sense stress, they take it to heart.
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dahowlers
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dahowlers

Female Join date : 2012-01-30
Location : Wisconsin

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptySat Jun 15, 2013 4:04 am

In all of my encounters with people saying their dogs didn't give any warning before a bite, I have observed that this is never the case. Warnings are NOT just sounds. He is probably giving "back off" body language cues that are strong to him but aren't being noticed by the people he's giving them to, so he resorts to a bite. I'm not saying that this is correct behavior but watch him very closely  until you can read his cues.
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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptySat Jun 15, 2013 10:11 am

@dahowlers wrote:
In all of my encounters with people saying their dogs didn't give any warning before a bite, I have observed that this is never the case. Warnings are NOT just sounds. He is probably giving "back off" body language cues that are strong to him but aren't being noticed by the people he's giving them to, so he resorts to a bite. I'm not saying that this is correct behavior but watch him very closely  until you can read his cues.

Your probably right. I wasn't really paying to much attention when I was petting his paw while he was laying in his crate, cause he's never had a problem with me touching him anywhere. Only problem is, there is no way I'm getting a 4 yr old to understand dog body language. My cats give her plenty, and I mean plenty of warning before the swat at her, but she just won't leave them alone. She's been scratched numerous times, but all she wants to do is pet them. She has no fear of Lucian or my cats. She tells me Lucian won't bite her, and I know he could.
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Keyda81
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Keyda81

Female Join date : 2012-09-24
Location : Niagara Falls, NY

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 11:26 am

Just a little update on Lucian's behavior problem. He goes in for training this Friday. We haven't had any other incidents. He is a little funny with strangers for the first few minutes. He grumbled at my cousin the other day while he was petting him, but after a few minutes they were playing together just fine. He did grumble at me a bit last night, but that was just stubborn husky not wanting to get up from his comfy spot in the living room to go to his crate. So I have high hopes with this training. I'll learn the proper techniques to deal with his little behavior problem. I've been working on his food aggression, and he's a lot less reactive when I approach his bowl. He used to cower really bad, now he barely moves. It's taken a long time to get this far, but I'll keep at it for as long as it takes. He is my baby boy after all.
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cinnamonbits
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cinnamonbits

Female Join date : 2012-11-03
Location : San Antonio, TX

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 12:32 pm

I'm so glad things are getting better with him! Reading through the thread, do you think that maybe he doesn't see your daughter has high up in the pack (above him) like he does you? That *could* be part of the problem. Hopefully the trainer figures out what's going on with your boy. One thing I have noticed with Karli is that if I'm playing with her or petting her, and I stop, she starts playing with my hand, nibbling on it and pawing at it, to get me to continue. Just a thought.
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VintageJeans
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VintageJeans

Female Join date : 2012-07-07
Location : Houston, TX

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 1:39 pm

It sounds like you are picking up all of the right cues and details. Be sure to tell your trainer this so he can help pinpoint the problem. I truly believe that you can get Lucian to get along with your daughter at all times. I really wish you guys the best and thank you for the continued updates!
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Sheba&Kennedy
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Sheba&Kennedy

Female Join date : 2012-08-13
Location : Nebraska

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PostSubject: Re: What do I do? (Update)   What do I do? (Update) EmptyTue Jul 30, 2013 10:10 pm

So glad things are getting better!!!
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