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 Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite

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Grizzly&Charcoal
Teenager
Teenager


Join date : 2012-12-15

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PostSubject: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 5:43 pm

Being difficult to identify why my dog made a bite towards my boyfriend. We have been living together since the first day we bought Charcoal home- 4 years, almost 5 years. Boyfriend and I have different definition of "play". In my eyes, his "plays" rough to Charcoal and sometimes associate with some pain, like holding him too tight. But in his eyes that's the way to express his love to the dog. It sounds like a baby who don't know how to control himself and cause pain to the dog.
One sure thing, Charcoal doesn't like how the way being "play", he often "speak" sounds like "are you serious?" or even growling without showing teeth when involve "play".
Last Sunday, my boyfriend "play" with Charcoal while he is sitting under the table, and Charcoal growl like used to, but somehow he bite my boyfriend hand and left him skin puncture.
Now I am unsure who fault is it?? Is it all of us fault? My fault being not to correct at the very 1st time? Charcoal's fault being bite? Boyfriend fault being pissed off Charcoal?
How to makes things right again? After 2 days the incident, Charcoal is reluctant to follow boyfriend's command or even stay close with him.
Appreciated advance.
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aljones
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Senior
aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 6:43 pm

From my own personal experience - when a dog growls and you continue to do what you were doing that caused him to growl, it's no bodies fault but your own.  After 4 - 5 years the difference between play growl and serious growl should be real obvious, unless Charcoal has been seriously growling all along and finally had enough.

I play rough with Avalanche, he gets rolled, hit, kicked (all reasonably gently) and comes back for more.  In fact, I've never heard him growl at a human.  Sasha on the other hand is one I play very carefully with, she's drawn blood on Avalanche a couple of times when she's said "Enough!" and he hasn't listened.

One thing about Husky's when enough is enough, they will let you know - and I think you're boyfriend's been told to tone it down some (or maybe a lot!). A serious growl is simply a warning - stop that! If you ignore the warning, the the result are your own fault!

If your boyfriend is pissed off at Charcoal, he's looking in the wrong direction.  You don't cause anyone pain and call it "play", that's not play.  I may hold Avalanche down (loosely) but he knows that he can get out of it and on his feet if he wants to - I'm intentionally not holding him that tightly - I don't want to hurt him, I want to play (and so does he!)

In my book, Charcoal is saying that he doesn't trust your boyfriend because he's hurt him too much, to often.  He has the choice to withdraw or attack and being a smart dog, he's just staying away.  I'd suggest you warn your boyfriend that the next time Charcoal growls he better pay attention because it might not just be a simple bite.  And it is not Charcoals fault, he's responding in the best way he knows how!
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 6:46 pm

Ditch the boyfriend. He sounds sadistic.
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 6:56 pm

P.S. Al was much more diplomatic but right on the money! Sorry for being blunt.
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Grizzly&Charcoal
Teenager
Teenager


Join date : 2012-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 8:06 pm

Jones,

Thank you for your time.

I really don't know what word should I use to describe the way how my boyfriend interact with Charcoal. I feel so awful for not being stand by Charcoal and protect him. Indeed, I don't feel any sorry towards to my boyfriend being bite, strange.

Okey, Would you reckon I can put that 2 back together peacefully? Or is it time for professional trainer to step in?

To be frank with you until before you wrote to me, I believe that is 75% my boyfriend's fault and 25% mine. Charcoal has no fault. I always thought never have a problem dog but could have a problem owners. But my boyfriend deny, he blames that is totally my fault to encourage Charcoal to growl at him.


Last edited by Grizzly&Charcoal on Tue Sep 23, 2014 8:17 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Grizzly&Charcoal
Teenager
Teenager


Join date : 2012-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 8:13 pm

Amy,
Pardon me, but what you have said is totally not acceptable and rude.
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amymeme
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Senior
amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 8:36 pm

Grizzly&Charcoal wrote:
Amy,
Pardon me, but what you have said is totally not acceptable and rude.

I apologize for the bluntness of my response - it seems that you are in a tough position, caught between your dog and your boyfriend. I do question your boyfriends behavior regarding your dog, an animal who ultimately has only his growl and his bite to protect himself from cruelty and sincerely hope you find a solution for all of you. Again, I apologize for my blunt response, rudeness was not my intent.
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barbianj
Puppy
Puppy
barbianj

Male Join date : 2013-09-28
Location : Wisconsin

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 10:45 pm

Your boyfriend causing pain to your dog is not right. He has to change his behavior.
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techigirl78
Adult
Adult
techigirl78

Female Join date : 2013-06-26
Location : Wisconsin

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyTue Sep 23, 2014 11:52 pm

Does Charcoal act much better to you? Is he more tolerant? I used that with my fiance' to help his behavior with Loki as I felt he was too rough and Loki definitely became much closer to me as a result. My fiance is much better with Loki now and does not try to rough house Ichigo at all.
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Vetsky
Teenager
Teenager
Vetsky

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Montreal

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 11:14 am

IMO : 

- Your dog should not bite a human.  No matter what. Rough play, warnings, whatever.  At five years old Charcol should know that you and your boyfriend are the boss.

- Sorry if this seems harsh, but Like Al mentioned above.  You know if your pushing a dog too far.  Their body language, posture are a dead give away.  There is no reason to provoke a non aggressive dog to bite.  

These two statements seem to contradict each other, but IMO both the dog and your boyfriend are responsible.

Persoanlly, I would get a professional to help.  Even if Charcol does not need the training the trainer will probably teach your boyfriend how to behave and respect your dog.
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 11:37 am

@Vetsky wrote:
IMO : 

Persoanlly, I would get a professional to help.  Even if Charcol does not need the training the trainer will probably teach your boyfriend how to behave and respect your dog.

Excellent point - would take you out of the position of having to correct your boyfriend!
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Grizzly&Charcoal
Teenager
Teenager


Join date : 2012-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 11:54 am

@amymeme wrote:

Grizzly&Charcoal wrote:
Amy,
Pardon me, but what you have said is totally not acceptable and rude.


I apologize for the bluntness of my response - it seems that you are in a tough position, caught between your dog and your boyfriend.  I do question your boyfriends behavior regarding your dog, an animal who ultimately has only his growl and his bite to protect himself from cruelty and sincerely hope you find a solution for all of you.  Again, I apologize for my blunt response, rudeness was not my intent.

I accept your apology.

My boyfriend does not always "play rough" with Charcoal, but Charcoal growl/ moan quite frequent towards my boyfriend when he gets close. Even my boyfriend just simply asked "hand", Charcoal would respond "erh- erh- em" and still give a paw. In my eyes, Charcoal don't obey or "listen" that much to him sometimes. However, in this incident I believe that was Charcoal has had enough. But I am not sure, because others saying that dog shouldn't bite their owner. I am confuse.
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Grizzly&Charcoal
Teenager
Teenager


Join date : 2012-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 12:05 pm

@techigirl78 wrote:
Does Charcoal act much better to you?  Is he more tolerant?  I used that with my fiance' to help his behavior with Loki as I felt he was too rough and Loki definitely became much closer to me as a result.  My fiance is much better with Loki now and does not try to rough house Ichigo at all.

Charcoal and I are getting on much better. However, I can tell Charcoal keep challenge my alpha position occasionally in recent days.
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mbarnard0429
Senior
Senior
mbarnard0429

Female Join date : 2011-08-07
Location : Michigan

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 1:14 pm

@Vetsky wrote:
IMO : 

- Your dog should not bite a human.  No matter what. Rough play, warnings, whatever.  At five years old Charcol should know that you and your boyfriend are the boss.

.

I disagree with this statement strictly because there are situations where I think a bite is warranted. If my dog is being abused (and that can be taken many ways) then yes, my dog will respond with a warning growl, perhaps a lunge at the person (no bite) and if the human is still be a jerk, a bite happens. We can't expect dogs not to defend themselves when someone is harming them.
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aljones
Senior
Senior
aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 5:57 pm

There are several different thought running through this thread, so I'll try to organize mine:

Vetsky, et al - while I agree, in general, a pet dog / working dog (as opposed to a feral dog) should not bite a human being, I also have to agree with Megans comment. I play rough with Avalanche (have the claw marks to prove it) but I know that there's no way he'd bite me (or probably anyone). However if a dog is being mistreated ( abused, if you want ) then I think the dog has every right to try to protect himself - even to the point of biting the abuser. In all things, in my mind, there are limits that we cannot allow to be crossed.
If the dog tries to evade abuse, growls a warning and the abuser insists on mistreatment, then sorry, imho, shame on him!

I wasn't there when Charcoal bit the boyfriend so I can't definitively say that the boyfriend "deserved" it. My impression is that he did.

Okay, so now what. We have a young lady concerned about her dog and her boyfriend and her own position in the "pack". I loved the observation that a trainer might be a good call - if they weren't able to teach the dog (who responded in reasonable fashion) then they might be able to teach the boyfriend, which seem to be the more productive course.

_________________
Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite GY3Hm5 Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite REEum5 Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite 2zERm5

“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”

Corey Ford
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MiyasMomma
Senior
Senior
MiyasMomma

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 6:35 pm

Al I can't agree with you more. In the wolf world when one is playing too rough and another has had it, it is very common for the one to place head in mouth of the other to say hey stop that, I'm done. There is no other recourse for a husky, they can not verbalize when they have had enough, you must watch for the signs, hair up, then growl, then bite. Boyfriend needs to get a clue, he's playing too rough, border line abusive and he got what he deserved. Our young lady being the pack leader needs to communicate with boyfriend that this is no longer acceptable, or he's going to dog training.
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 6:49 pm

@MiyasMomma wrote:
Al I can't agree with you more. In the wolf world when one is playing too rough and another has had it, it is very common for the one to place head in mouth of the other to say hey stop that, I'm done. There is no other recourse for a husky, they can not verbalize when they have had enough, you must watch for the signs, hair up, then growl, then bite. Boyfriend needs to get a clue, he's playing too rough, border line abusive and he got what he deserved. Our young lady being the pack leader needs to communicate with boyfriend that this is no longer acceptable, or he's going to dog training.

IF the young lady is indeed the pack leader and has the ability to put on the brakes...some situations can be tough.
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techigirl78
Adult
Adult
techigirl78

Female Join date : 2013-06-26
Location : Wisconsin

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyWed Sep 24, 2014 7:14 pm

With what you said, I think you definitely should try bringing in trainer just for a hour to see what is going on in your house if you have the resources. I don't want to blame your boyfriend as if your dog is challenging you it may be something else as well. Most dogs don't just start bitting people after 5 years. I am wondering if a vet check wouldn't be in order as well just to rule out any other issues here.
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MiyasMomma
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MiyasMomma

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyThu Sep 25, 2014 12:42 am

Amy, Op sees herself as pack leader "Charcoal and I are getting on much better. However, I can tell Charcoal keep challenge my alpha position occasionally in recent days." Amy, I know not every situation is easy, but you were the one who suggested she dump the guy in the first place. Honestly I strongly suggest as Jessica mentioned vet check, then in home trainer. Although my best guess is quite simple, Charcoal couldn't take it any more and lashed out. What boyfriend is constantly doing to this dog is alpha rolling, dog views female half as pack leader, then dynamics changed. Charcoal views himself as pack leader since female half did not protect him and he bit male half. Dynamics can change quickly. It's still the male half's fault for aggressively playing, whether he understands this or not, alpha rolling in nature is to show dominance over something that is "weaker", when truth be known out of respect to female half, dog has been a good boy, not tearing this man's face off. I'm quite mad here. People should never antagonize an animal, people should never egg an animal on, or in the end they get what they've been dishing out ten fold. Truthfully having a good vet check, then trainer, I'm curious, although some how everything will point to the dog being bad or sick, and I'm not going to buy it. The dogs reluctance to even follow males commands suggests there is something more going on, than simple play that got out of hand.

Op has the dog displayed any negative behavior towards you? Has the dog displayed any pain, perhaps wincing when asked to sit, or crying when you ask to do something he always does with you? If the dog has an injury you may not see it, and the rough play made it worse and the bite was to express he's in pain vs giving pain.

Jessica, I believe that an Omega of the pack will take 5 years of abuse before he bites, at 5 years of age is when an Omega will either challenge the abuser or in the wild will go off to start his own pack. I still agree with you as far as seeing vet and getting a trainer in. I am fearful that a perfectly fine, healthy dog , will be deemed a threat to people, when it's people that is the problem.

To every one, especially op, I'm very passionate on protecting animals, animals always get the short end of the stick, and quite honestly it makes me sad and angry.
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MiyasMomma
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MiyasMomma

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyThu Sep 25, 2014 2:58 am

Sorry for the rant people, I told myself not to post in this thread, because I was angry. Amy, you said what I wanted to say, i just knew it would sound rude and unsympathetic. I came back on because i wanted to explain myself a little. I don't understand why many men(not all men) think they must be dominate towards medium/large dogs? I grew cojones quickly, I am not afraid of my husband, please let me say that, but he is/can be domineering. He would play too rough in my opinion with Miya when she was young, I started quoting behaviorists and trainers in order for him to back off. He understood, readjusted his play and plays rough, but very similar to how Al plays with Avalanche. Fast forward to a few months ago, Miya can be food possessive with her bones with husband and cat. I explained to him to leave her alone, I gave it to her not him, therefore I am the only one she will allow to take from her. He thought it was a laugh riot one night when he tried to take it from her, hackles came up, no growling, no teeth exposed, and he was saying hey girl, I interjected, her hackles are up, keep it up and she will bite you, and when she does I will laugh at you because you got what you deserved. He stopped, and hasn't done again. Miya loves him, respects him, obeys him, but I am the only one that controls the food in the house. My point is this, I know if I were to tell hubby stop it, without giving factual info as to why, he will ignore my requests. I have seen this with other men, again not pointing fingers at all men, and also I will say my hubby is not abusive in any way, shape, or form, men get dumb at times and don't realize they are doing stupid things. And sometimes dogs do things when they or someone else can't/won't say hey stop that.

I really hope I did not upset any one here. I just see the whole Siegfried and Roy in my head, and how they were trainers and there must have been something wrong with the cat, when I think that cat got smacked one too many times and tried to say hey stop that and smack, no more Roy, and no more cat. (yes I know they both survived, just wanted to make the point, in the real world happy endings are not always the outcome). Like I said this type of thing makes me sad and mad.
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Grizzly&Charcoal
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Join date : 2012-12-15

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyThu Sep 25, 2014 4:17 pm

Rather than quoting everyone's I am just simply reply though here.(Try to makes it look tidy)

Megan B: To be very honest with you, I was not watching how and why did he (Charcoal) bite or (Human) get bitten. All I have heard is a heavy growl for a short while and following up with a human yep. I believe Charcoal might being grumpy for no reason (indeed he was quite enjoy his day with his new toy) and boyfriend was entered his relax zone and played with heavy hand. (Honestly, he said he didn't even touch him, but I doubt.)

Jones: Bring in a 3rd person might be a good idea like everyone saying, to train the human how to deal with the dog. I think that might be easier for me. As I can avoid involve an argument with him.
And thanks for being supportive whenever I need and, call me as "young lady" =)

Jessica: Sorry, would you please explain why would you suggested to make a vet check before a trainer?

Renee: It is an unfortunate situation or I should say it is unpleasant to anyone to read. Charcoal is eat, sleep, walk, and play fine after the incident. Don't think that is a serious injury and a bruise as I constantly stoke him from time to time to check. I think my boyfriend pinched Charcoal's skin, that's why Charcoal bite back. (However, my boyfriend deny he did that time.) He acts like a few years old kid playing such a game which I hate! Charcoal doesn't have much negative behavior towards me except crying for food when I am eating. I takes it as a challenge if I am right. Charcoal shouldn't ask or even tried to climb on me when I am eating. I think that's the only I can think of on top my head.
Regarding the passionate of animal cruelty, actually I am working towards become a Vegan. It is very challenge as the whole life style has been switched. Anyways, it is not an easy situation for me indeed. I don't want to give up either of them to please the others.
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyThu Sep 25, 2014 4:31 pm

I would hope you can identify what would please you - and how to achieve that. I think, in your gut, you know what is right and wrong in human and animal relationships and can work towards a satisfying life plan.
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MiyasMomma
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MiyasMomma

Female Join date : 2014-06-26
Location : west Texas

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyThu Sep 25, 2014 5:35 pm

Jessica can correct me, but the reason we suggested a vet check wasn't to see if boyfriend caused an injury, but to make sure he isn't sick, have a condition, or had a previous injury. Dogs fake injuries and sickness quite well and sometimes the only way you know is because they do something out of the norm, i.e. bite. If it went down the way boyfriend says, Charcoal may have had a non visible injury, boyfriend touched it, Charcoal not in the mood and he touched my boo boo and chomp, stay away bite. In the best interest of everyone involved take him to the vet, tell vet Charcoal has been acting grumpy and wondered if he hurt himself somehow or is sick. Let the vet check him over. Clean bill of health call an in home trainer. Tell trainer having problems with climbing on you while eating and wondering how much is too much of rough play.

I do hope you can resolve the issue and all of you remain happy.

Renee
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techigirl78
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techigirl78

Female Join date : 2013-06-26
Location : Wisconsin

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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyThu Sep 25, 2014 6:51 pm

Yes, I suggested vet as sometimes changes in behavior can indicate underlying health issue.

If not a trainer then I would ask your friends and family how they think your boyfriend treats charcoal. I am not sure rough play helps but I can't imagine you would not stop it if you deemed abuse. Huskies play rough. Given charcoal bit on a day with a new toy, was the toy by him? I wonder if this is not resource guarding. Just something to consider.
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barbianj
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barbianj

Male Join date : 2013-09-28
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PostSubject: Re: Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite   Help with identify with the incident- Dog bite EmptyThu Sep 25, 2014 11:30 pm

Sounds like the boyfriend may have some jealousy issues. Training would help in that case as well. Build more respect and understanding between the human and the dog.
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