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 How to train a scared dog to walk...

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rnelsen
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Teenager
rnelsen

Female Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Florida

How to train a scared dog to walk... Empty
PostSubject: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 2:34 pm

So, Drake is not any better about walking. He only does it if he has to pee/poop, same as 2 weeks ago. He doesn't seem to be getting any better. We've even tried taking him outside with his husky-friend, Apollo, and we had the same results.

I've been reading/watching some of Cesar Millan's material, and while I know there is some controversy on some of his techniques, especially with aggressive/mean dogs, I think there is some value in his dog "psychology". Drake is obviously very insecure. I know I need to assert myself as "pack leader" and when I become the dominant one he will find security in following me. So today I decided to try and "assert" myself outside.

I put the leash on, took him outside. He walked a few yards and wanted to turn around. I stood my ground and held the leash firm. I ended up following him because he was pulling so hard I didn't want him to choke himself. We went back to our door and instead of letting him in we just stood there. He walked in circles for a while and when he realized I wasn't going to let him in he just laid at the door. I stood there over ten minutes and he didn't budge. I gave up and we came back inside.

I know that walking will be great for him on many different levels, exercise and bonding just being two of them. But I don't know how to train him and assert myself when he lays down and seems so terrified. It is a lot harder to earn trust than to command respect, so I don't know if I'm trying to do this too soon. I know there are some things I need to "force" him to face to get over his fear, but I don't want to end up making him MORE fearful because I'm trying to push him into this too soon.
(And as far as "positive reinforcement training" goes, he could care less about treats when he's outside. He also doesn't seem to be very responsive to the clicker. I tried several days and while the clicker did catch his attention, it didn't really seem to affect his behavior. For example, after a few days I would click and instead of him coming up to me for a treat he'd just look at me and go back to what he was doing.)
HELP! confused

How to train a scared dog to walk... Imag0110
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toyszruskid
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toyszruskid

Female Join date : 2011-07-01
Location : Augusta, GA

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyTue Jan 31, 2012 3:11 pm

Wish I could help but I'm dealing with something similar with my older husky, Navi. She's deathly afraid of kids and as of yet we've found no ways of improving her condition. You name it, we've tried it. If we're not able to make progress this weekend I'll be consulting a professional because I have no idea what to do next. She saw a kid last night on our walk and it took her at least 15 minutes to regain enough composure to where she wasn't spooked at every noise she heard. I posted here after trying everything, hoping someone would have advice but I didn't get much feedback. Navi was fearful of certain objects and we've gotten her over that stuff but this kid thing seems almost impossible to overcome. I know what you're dealing with and I'm sorry things aren't improving. Sad
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rnelsen
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rnelsen

Female Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Florida

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptySun Feb 05, 2012 11:31 pm

I'm sorry for your situation too...it's frustrating and sad at the same time. We've only had Drake for 3 weeks, but it's hard to know when it's time to push him...I don't want to "flood" him with too much to where he shuts down. But I also don't want to reinforce bad behavior so it's that much harder to break later!!

I just wish he could walk farther than the front door. I know he desperately needs exercise and I want to bond with him so badly! I've already thought of seeking professional advice if things don't improve over the next few months, because I feel totally inadequate to handle this! Let me know if something works for you and I'll do the same! Good luck.
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g0tmus1c
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g0tmus1c

Female Join date : 2012-01-17
Location : Los Angeles, CA

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyTue Feb 07, 2012 2:53 am

I'm not experienced with dealing with this type of behavior, but have you tried just to run with him on the leash? I've noticed even if my pup doesn't want to walk on the leash if I run she automatically wants to follow and run with me. Then maybe after a little while you can slow it down to a walk.

Again, I have not dealt with a big dog with this problem (my pup is 3 months!) but maybe its worth a try! good luck Smile
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hollywoodhuskies
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hollywoodhuskies

Female Join date : 2011-07-24
Location : Los Angeles

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyTue Feb 07, 2012 4:09 am

Rachel - I can see how frustrating this is. At this point, definitely at least get an introductory evaluation with a trustworthy trainer/behaviourist you feel comfortable with. I commend you for sticking with this - the first month is the toughest with some rescue dogs (like our Frosti) but it is so worth it.

How's it going with the sitting on the floor with the treats and having him come to you?
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CaliaKisses
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CaliaKisses

Female Join date : 2011-12-26
Location : Suffolk County, NY

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyTue Feb 07, 2012 12:05 pm

You may want to find a different motivator than treats or a higher value food item, if he isn't responding very well with what you are offering him. Also, the clicker isn't for getting attention but actually a marker to let him know what he is doing is the right thing, kind of like saying 'good boy' but more accurate. The click not only tells the dog that what they did was correct, but it is also a promise that a reward will follow whether it be a game or a treat. In the beginning every time you click the treat must be in his mouth right away, over time and practice you can work on taking longer to reward.

I would advise not doing Cesar Millan type training, especially with a fearful dog, as it is too easy to make mistakes and cause additional issues to arise. You must learn to be patient and find ways that boosts a dogs confidence, not beat it down. There is no need to force a dog to do something when you can just as easily convince them that it is the greatest thing in the world to do.

One thing you can try doing is practicing heeling exercises, and using that as a distraction when going beyond that invisible barrier Drake has made. Get some really yummy treats (chicken, hot dog, cheese), and lure him to your side with it. Keep the treat at his nose, walk few steps with him following, praise (click) and reward. Practice a few times with the treat at his nose, and then try it with your treat hand by your hip for a second or two before rewarding him. Remember to take baby steps and if his focus goes elsewhere swoop the treat near his nose, bring it back to your hip and reward him for focusing back onto you. Once he understands to keep his attention on you while your hand is at your hip, try walking a little longer, rewarding as you go. Eventually with enough practice, he'll be willing to focus on you while in heal position, and you can work on passing his invisible barrier. Get his attention and walk him up to the barrier, and practice. When you are confident you have his focus, walk him past the barrier and reward him as if you were just started teaching him to heel. So long as he keeps focus on you, continue crossing the barrier returning, each time going a little further away. Avoid stressing him out, if he stresses take a step back and work where he is still comfortable. You will see that with practice and patience, Drake will become confident and a great walking companion.
Some books that are worth checking out:

By Pat Miller
-The Power of Positive Training
-Positive Perspectives 2

By Jean Donaldson
-The Other End of the Leash

By Karen Pryor
-Don't Shoot the Dog and Getting Started

By Ian Dunbar
-Before and After Getting Your Puppy

By Jean Donaldson
-Culture Clash.
- DVD Perfect Paws in 5 Days.

By Fisher, Susan
-So your Dog's not Lassie: Tips for Training Difficult Dogs and Independent Breeds.

By Garrett, Susan
-Crate Games for Self control.

By Kearns, Nancy
-The Whole dog Journal Handbook of Dog and Puppy Care.
(Not to be confused with online version monthly issue of Whole dog Journal - http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/)

By McConnell, Patricia
-How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have your Dog Love You for it!
-Other end of the Leash.

By Rugaas, Turid
-On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals.
(Also has DVD - Calming Signals: What your Dog Tells you)
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Ghost
Adult
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Ghost

Female Join date : 2011-09-20
Location : Vancouver, BC

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyTue Feb 07, 2012 8:23 pm

Great post, Beth. I also don't have much experience with a fearful dog, but I would second the idea of not using Cesar Millan's methods. There have been a couple of studies that show that dogs taught using positive methods are less likely to have behavioural problems than those trained using negative punishment. I think with a fearful dog the risk of something going wrong is too high, when what you need to do is build up trust between you.

The reason Drake won't take treats outside is because he is too stressed or excited then. If he likes affection then you can use that as a reward instead.

There's one book I'd add to Beth's list, which is 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw. It's a summary of the latest canine behavioural science and it's very readable.

I think you've done a great thing in giving Drake a home and I'm sure it will all work out in the end, even if it does take patience to get there.
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rnelsen
Teenager
Teenager
rnelsen

Female Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Florida

How to train a scared dog to walk... Empty
PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 1:11 am

@CaliaKisses wrote:
You may want to find a different motivator than treats or a higher value food item, if he isn't responding very well with what you are offering him. Also, the clicker isn't for getting attention but actually a marker to let him know what he is doing is the right thing, kind of like saying 'good boy' but more accurate. The click not only tells the dog that what they did was correct, but it is also a promise that a reward will follow whether it be a game or a treat. In the beginning every time you click the treat must be in his mouth right away, over time and practice you can work on taking longer to reward.

I would advise not doing Cesar Millan type training, especially with a fearful dog, as it is too easy to make mistakes and cause additional issues to arise. You must learn to be patient and find ways that boosts a dogs confidence, not beat it down. There is no need to force a dog to do something when you can just as easily convince them that it is the greatest thing in the world to do.

One thing you can try doing is practicing heeling exercises, and using that as a distraction when going beyond that invisible barrier Drake has made. Get some really yummy treats (chicken, hot dog, cheese), and lure him to your side with it. Keep the treat at his nose, walk few steps with him following, praise (click) and reward. Practice a few times with the treat at his nose, and then try it with your treat hand by your hip for a second or two before rewarding him. Remember to take baby steps and if his focus goes elsewhere swoop the treat near his nose, bring it back to your hip and reward him for focusing back onto you. Once he understands to keep his attention on you while your hand is at your hip, try walking a little longer, rewarding as you go. Eventually with enough practice, he'll be willing to focus on you while in heal position, and you can work on passing his invisible barrier. Get his attention and walk him up to the barrier, and practice. When you are confident you have his focus, walk him past the barrier and reward him as if you were just started teaching him to heel. So long as he keeps focus on you, continue crossing the barrier returning, each time going a little further away. Avoid stressing him out, if he stresses take a step back and work where he is still comfortable. You will see that with practice and patience, Drake will become confident and a great walking companion.
Some books that are worth checking out:

By Pat Miller
-The Power of Positive Training
-Positive Perspectives 2

By Jean Donaldson
-The Other End of the Leash

By Karen Pryor
-Don't Shoot the Dog and Getting Started

By Ian Dunbar
-Before and After Getting Your Puppy

By Jean Donaldson
-Culture Clash.
- DVD Perfect Paws in 5 Days.

By Fisher, Susan
-So your Dog's not Lassie: Tips for Training Difficult Dogs and Independent Breeds.

By Garrett, Susan
-Crate Games for Self control.

By Kearns, Nancy
-The Whole dog Journal Handbook of Dog and Puppy Care.
(Not to be confused with online version monthly issue of Whole dog Journal - http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/)

By McConnell, Patricia
-How to be the Leader of the Pack...and Have your Dog Love You for it!
-Other end of the Leash.

By Rugaas, Turid
-On Talking Terms With Dogs: Calming Signals.
(Also has DVD - Calming Signals: What your Dog Tells you)

Thank you for all of the advice! I actually just bought the Turid Rugaas book and I didn't buy How to be the Leader of the Pack, but I did buy The Cautious Canine-How to Help Dogs Conquer Their Fears also written by Patricia McConnell...they should be delivered tomorrow, I'm excited to start reading.

So even if he doesn't seem to be overly responsive to the clicker, keep doing it anyway? I'm sure he picks up on more things that I give him credit for...I've never tried to do treats outside because he's always way too stressed out and excited, but I'll have to try that. Maybe next time I take him to the bathroom I'll take a video with my phone and upload it so you guys can see exactly what he's doing.

He does not respond to affection, I don't think he's ever had affection a day in his life. The last few days I've been working with him with petting, touching, etc. I can only do it if he's relaxed and laying down. Some days he seems more tolerant of it than other days, but he never wags his tail or looks like he's enjoying it, and he avoids eye contact when I touch him. I think physical affection makes him uncomfortable, but he seems to be doing better with it.

I've had conflicting advice from people, including the vet. The vet told me to just walk forward and pull if I have to. They said that dogs are pack oriented and will "follow" me, so even if he struggles or pulls to pull him until he follows me. I understand the reasoning behind this but don't really think it's the best approach with a dog as fearful as he is...

Also, if he's going to the bathroom and someone walks down the sidewalk from a neighboring apartment (which oddly seems to happen a lot, much to my annoyance), he freaks out and tucks his tail and pulls me back to the door. If we're outside and he's startled by another person nearby, should I allow him to pull me back to the front door or should I just stand there and not let him "run away" so to speak? And let him learn that the person will walk by him and go away and nothing bad will happen??
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rnelsen
Teenager
Teenager
rnelsen

Female Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Florida

How to train a scared dog to walk... Empty
PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 1:15 am

@Ghost wrote:
Great post, Beth. I also don't have much experience with a fearful dog, but I would second the idea of not using Cesar Millan's methods. There have been a couple of studies that show that dogs taught using positive methods are less likely to have behavioural problems than those trained using negative punishment. I think with a fearful dog the risk of something going wrong is too high, when what you need to do is build up trust between you.

The reason Drake won't take treats outside is because he is too stressed or excited then. If he likes affection then you can use that as a reward instead.

There's one book I'd add to Beth's list, which is 'In Defence of Dogs' by John Bradshaw. It's a summary of the latest canine behavioural science and it's very readable.

I think you've done a great thing in giving Drake a home and I'm sure it will all work out in the end, even if it does take patience to get there.

I referenced this in my response above, but unfortunately I think he view affection/attention as a punishment and not a reward, lol. When we first adopted him I thought he was so scared because of physical abuse, but now I think he's been completely neglected and completely unsocialized. He has no concept of toys or how to play with them, I've crawled around on all fours, tried to hide from him, drag things on the ground to initiate his "prey drive", all to no avail. When I see him with other dogs, it's so obvious what a playful personality he has and he loves to jump and run and wrestle. But I think he just has no idea how to relate to humans at all. It's very sad. Sad
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Niraya
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Niraya

Female Join date : 2011-08-30
Location : Easton, Pennsylvania

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 2:17 am

Don't listen to a vet about dog training X_X let them stick to the doctor-y stuff. Don't ever pull him!! You'll just make him more terrified - especially of you because you'll be hurting him! (And really don't use Milan's methods - you could be doing a lot more damage to him than you realize)

Also - some dogs just don't like affection and are very aloof. Bella will never actively seek affection - and affection as a reward means NOTHING to her. Siberian's aren't a breed bred to work with humans such as herding breeds are.

You never EVER want to force a dog into a situation where they're over/beyond their threshold. He'll shut down and you'll be right back at square one. A dog like that you just have to really leave on his own and to let him develop at his own pace and let his personality truly shine through so you know his limits and how fast you can progress to new things to try and help him adjust very slowly. Also - when he's being so fearful don't talk to him or try and "soothe" him - because he'll take it as he's doing a good thing/it's okay to act like this. You'll be reinforcing that behavior.

Since he's had such a terrible start in life - forcing him into something could very well do more damage than you can ever imagine and could also never be undone.

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Ghost
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Ghost

Female Join date : 2011-09-20
Location : Vancouver, BC

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 2:18 am

When we got Ghost, he was nowhere near as frightened as Drake, but still he avoided eye contact for months. Now in the evenings he sits and stares at us. It's such a change! But it took a long time, and we just tried not to force it. Maybe Drake is more comfortable for now if you also avoid eye contact and stand sideways instead of facing him? It sounds like you are doing a great job with him.

Ghost also didn't play when we got him. He has learned that from other dogs, rather than from us. I think having other dogs around really helps. We ended up getting another dog (not a husky) specifically to be friends with Ghost, but we also walk with our neighbours dogs every day, and he really likes it.

Dogs are pack animals, but a lot of pack theory is unfortunately not true. It came from studies of wolves that lived in captivity, and it turns out that wolves in the wild behave very differently. Also, the wolves that have been studied the most are American wolves, and this seems to be the only type of wolf that isn't known to have evolved into dogs. And because wolves have been hunted so much, the wolves that survive today are the ones that are most afraid of people - not necessarily the same as the wolves that long ago began to make friends with people and become dogs. We hear a lot about 'alpha wolves' but, in the wild, these are usually the parents. So a wolf pack is a big family.

I'm not sure what you should do when someone else comes out when he's on a toilet break. If he is desperate to get back inside then it seems hard to force him to stay. Maybe you could get him to pause by the door, and gradually get accustomed to it that way?

I know that when training leash reactive dogs, some people use distance as a reward (i.e. when the dog gives its attention to its handler, they reward it by moving it further away from the other dog that it is frightened of). Maybe you could use distance as a reward for Drake? Not sure how it would work, but it's just an idea.

I think any training that you can do with him in the house, where he feels safe, will also help to build his confidence. I think you're right, it does sound like he has been completely unsocialized. With time and patience, I am sure he will become much better.
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rnelsen
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rnelsen

Female Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Florida

How to train a scared dog to walk... Empty
PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 2:23 am

@Ghost wrote:
When we got Ghost, he was nowhere near as frightened as Drake, but still he avoided eye contact for months. Now in the evenings he sits and stares at us. It's such a change! But it took a long time, and we just tried not to force it. Maybe Drake is more comfortable for now if you also avoid eye contact and stand sideways instead of facing him? It sounds like you are doing a great job with him.

Ghost also didn't play when we got him. He has learned that from other dogs, rather than from us. I think having other dogs around really helps. We ended up getting another dog (not a husky) specifically to be friends with Ghost, but we also walk with our neighbours dogs every day, and he really likes it.

Dogs are pack animals, but a lot of pack theory is unfortunately not true. It came from studies of wolves that lived in captivity, and it turns out that wolves in the wild behave very differently. Also, the wolves that have been studied the most are American wolves, and this seems to be the only type of wolf that isn't known to have evolved into dogs. And because wolves have been hunted so much, the wolves that survive today are the ones that are most afraid of people - not necessarily the same as the wolves that long ago began to make friends with people and become dogs. We hear a lot about 'alpha wolves' but, in the wild, these are usually the parents. So a wolf pack is a big family.

I'm not sure what you should do when someone else comes out when he's on a toilet break. If he is desperate to get back inside then it seems hard to force him to stay. Maybe you could get him to pause by the door, and gradually get accustomed to it that way?

I know that when training leash reactive dogs, some people use distance as a reward (i.e. when the dog gives its attention to its handler, they reward it by moving it further away from the other dog that it is frightened of). Maybe you could use distance as a reward for Drake? Not sure how it would work, but it's just an idea.

I think any training that you can do with him in the house, where he feels safe, will also help to build his confidence. I think you're right, it does sound like he has been completely unsocialized. With time and patience, I am sure he will become much better.

He will actually stare at us a lot if 1) he's across the room from us or 2) he thinks we're not looking. But as soon as we approach him, or are in close contact with him, that head goes down and he gets shifty eyes, lol. I know that just means he's uncomfortable, so when I do approach him to pet or get in his space I will sit sideways and try not to look at him while petting. But it's a completely different story if he's begging for food. He'll look us dead in the eye!
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Ghost
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Ghost

Female Join date : 2011-09-20
Location : Vancouver, BC

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 2:26 am

Well that's a good sign ... he likes you Very Happy
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rnelsen
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rnelsen

Female Join date : 2012-01-05
Location : Florida

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 2:37 am

I hope he does...sometimes I wonder if he does yet or not.

I can't imagine what a horrible life he had before, so I like to think that he is happier than he's ever been...but it's so hard to tell sometimes and I know he misses living with other dogs, so sometimes I wonder if he's depressed.

He's completely captured my heart and I can't wait until we're best of friends. I hope one day he comes to feel the same about me. Smile
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CaliaKisses
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CaliaKisses

Female Join date : 2011-12-26
Location : Suffolk County, NY

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 11:28 am

Response to the clicker takes time, just maintain giving him food right after the click, and eventually he'll understand that getting you to click gets good things.

When people appear during walks, you have to spot them before he does and have a plan of action for it. One great thing to do is to teach him to sit and focus on you at home, and work on practicing it during the potty walks (even when people aren't around). When a person does come and you spot them first, remain calm while you tell Drake to sit and focus on you. Keep his attention and dish out treats like crazy to maintain his attention. If he spots the person first, or loses focus on you and the treats, give some distance from the person (even if that means heading closer to home) and work on getting his attention again. Once you are to a point where you can get his attention, have him sit and dish out treats until the "threat" is gone and he has calmed down a little. If possible, try to always end your walks with a peaceful and god time, even if that means only walking a short distance after an incident or even just sitting in the one spot for 5 minutes.

To help get him comfortable while you pet him, hold a piece of cheese (or similar food item) in your hand and let him lick it only when you're petting him. Stop petting him ever now and then, or whenever he moves away from your hand, and discontinue his licking of the cheese. Start petting, and let him lick the cheese. This is what I did to get my guys used to nail trimming and it seems to really help them understand that having 'such and such' done is not so bad.
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Ghost
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Ghost

Female Join date : 2011-09-20
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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 4:24 pm

You might find this an interesting read. It's about rehabilitating an aussie that hadn't been socialized at all, so some of the issues are the same.

It can easily take a rescue dog 6 months to settle in. He's still new with you. You'll get there Very Happy
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SaraB
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SaraB

Female Join date : 2010-09-09
Location : Deltona, FL

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 5:23 pm

Maybe for a play thing, get him one of those balls that you put kibble in and as the dog rolls it around the kibble falls out. Might give him some stimulation and build his confidence. Also try a lot of different things as treats and save the best ones for outside. Skin off of a roasted turkey or chicken, or deli meat usually make all dogs salivate. lol.

Like my mom thought, he seems like he just had no socialization with people before, but definitely with other dogs. He didn't really seem to shy away like he thought we were going to hurt him, just stayed stiff like he didn't know what to do.

Repetition does work with dogs. He is a hard case, but it's like when Elara was a puppy and thought I was trying to kill her when I trimmed her nails. She would scream bloody murder and try to get away. But after trimming her nails once a week for months, she's just fine with it now. Took months, but she got there. Fear is a hard thing for dogs to overcome. Building their confidence by training them in a place they are quite as scared (in your apartment) will help even if it's little things like looking at you, getting up and walking around, learning to sit, etc. You mentioned on FB that he jumped up on the bed with you. That's big progress!!! I think he's starting to like you if he's acting like that!

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rnelsen
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rnelsen

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 11:19 pm

@Ghost wrote:
You might find this an interesting read. It's about rehabilitating an aussie that hadn't been socialized at all, so some of the issues are the same.

It can easily take a rescue dog 6 months to settle in. He's still new with you. You'll get there Very Happy

WOW! What an amazing and encouraging article! Especially since Drake isn't nearly that bad. (When it comes to outdoors he is, but he already loves other dogs and is very comfortable approaching us for food and treats).

Thank you so much for posting!
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rnelsen
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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 11:26 pm

@SaraB wrote:
Maybe for a play thing, get him one of those balls that you put kibble in and as the dog rolls it around the kibble falls out. Might give him some stimulation and build his confidence. Also try a lot of different things as treats and save the best ones for outside. Skin off of a roasted turkey or chicken, or deli meat usually make all dogs salivate. lol.

Like my mom thought, he seems like he just had no socialization with people before, but definitely with other dogs. He didn't really seem to shy away like he thought we were going to hurt him, just stayed stiff like he didn't know what to do.

Repetition does work with dogs. He is a hard case, but it's like when Elara was a puppy and thought I was trying to kill her when I trimmed her nails. She would scream bloody murder and try to get away. But after trimming her nails once a week for months, she's just fine with it now. Took months, but she got there. Fear is a hard thing for dogs to overcome. Building their confidence by training them in a place they are quite as scared (in your apartment) will help even if it's little things like looking at you, getting up and walking around, learning to sit, etc. You mentioned on FB that he jumped up on the bed with you. That's big progress!!! I think he's starting to like you if he's acting like that!

I've heard about those treat ball things, I'm going to get one. I really think he wants to play he just doesn't know how to play with toys. Since he won't chase a ball, tonight I was throwing Zuke's across the room and he would leap/run to get it, tail wagging. Maybe we can use food to introduce him to play.

I'm also going to try chicken as an outside treat. I know he's so scared/distracted I'll need something really, REALLY irresistable and yummy smelling.

As far as the bath goes, do you recommend trying that at this point? We would have to carry him to the table, which isn't that far (when you came over, it's right by the parking lot out front). I know he'd be scared, but if we started doing it every two weeks I guess eventually he would get used to it. What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyWed Feb 08, 2012 11:39 pm

I dunno about the bath. You want to do it outside with a hose correct? My only worry is a wet soapy dog is really hard to hold on to. Can you bathe him in your shower instead? That's where I bathe my two. Siku is such a baby with cold water, but just fine with warm water. How dirty is he? I'm thinking right now, you may want to wait, cause I can see that really freaking him out. They make dry shampoo and wipes you could use instead. I have a big jug of proclean waterless whitening shampoo. I put it in a spray bottle and spray down their legs (I've only used it on their legs, cause I just throw them in the shower if I need to do more) till it's all sudsy and work it into the fur with my hand and then take a clean towel and wipe it off. It take a lot of dirt off! The towel usually looks black where I've rubbed the stuff off.

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyThu Feb 09, 2012 7:30 am

Myself I hate giving a dog an outside bath. Don't understand why? Take your next shower with no hot water then you'll know what it feels like to a dog. Wink
In fact it might even seem colder to them since they run a higher body temperature then we do.
(just a personal observation)
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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyThu Feb 09, 2012 10:31 am

Sara,
Where did you get the ProClean Waterless Whitening Shampoo? Can't seem to find it online. Thanks.
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iceblulady
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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyThu Feb 09, 2012 11:09 am

I have given my dogs bathes outside with the hose. It's easier and I don't have a huge mess to clean up. Living in some places in FL you really do not have cold water it's kinda luke warm. Water really doesn't get cold down here. During 2004 hurricanes we had no electric so we had to take showers with the water hose and it really wasn't that bad.
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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyThu Feb 09, 2012 3:26 pm

@Ghost wrote:
You might find this an interesting read. It's about rehabilitating an aussie that hadn't been socialized at all, so some of the issues are the same.

It can easily take a rescue dog 6 months to settle in. He's still new with you. You'll get there Very Happy

I decided to email the lady who wrote this article. I thanked her for writing and asked about Katie's progress and also told her a little of Drake's story. She wrote back! And gave me her number!! Here's what she said:

Hi Rachel,
Thanks for writing! I'm glad the article was helpful. I do hope to do a book in the future, as I've continued to learn so much from Katie. (The only thing in the article that I would not recommend for you would be the tethering part - too dangerous with a big dog, and doesn't really sound needed anyway).

There's a great website that might be useful for you: www.fearfuldogs.com. Lots of good articles there.

I would be glad to talk with you by phone sometime, if you'd like. I could more easily make a few suggestions that might help you as you take on this big task! It sounds like there are some very hopeful signs there, and it does take time for dogs to begin to feel safe in any new environment. Would be glad to share some ideas about the outdoors, as well.

As for approaching, if you can do it without looking at Drake and maybe even turning your head and body aside a bit, it might work better. Dogs don't like the front-on approach in general, and especially so when they are fearful/skittish.

Katie is doing marvelously well. She is totally integrated with the family, comes up and even insists on getting petted now, licks our hands and faces, plays with all our other dogs, and has become a bit "mouthy" when she wants to go outdoors to play (in the beginning she was very fearful of the outdoors, too). I'll attach a couple recent photos of her which shows how much more confidence she has. She still has her moments where she removes herself from us or suddenly seems fearful, but they are vastly less often.

Safety is the key to success. The dog has to feel safe, and you move in short little steps. Once the dog feels safer and safer, more and more things can happen. There's a tendency, even among dog trainers, to push things too quickly with these types of dogs, because we think we are helping them, but sometimes we ignore safety issues that only the dog knows and is trying to tell us through behavior.

If you'd like to call sometime, my number is below. Would be very happy to share some info and further tips!

Risë

Very Happy
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rnelsen
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rnelsen

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PostSubject: Re: How to train a scared dog to walk...   How to train a scared dog to walk... EmptyThu Feb 09, 2012 3:27 pm

@Here4thePics wrote:
Myself I hate giving a dog an outside bath. Don't understand why? Take your next shower with no hot water then you'll know what it feels like to a dog. Wink
In fact it might even seem colder to them since they run a higher body temperature then we do.
(just a personal observation)

Like Deb said, the water really doesn't get cold down here. And even though it's "winter" the high has been in the 70's all week. Smile
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