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 canine lupus, and prednisone

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crowjane
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PostSubject: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySat May 23, 2015 12:31 pm

Hey everyone, I am new. My name is Chloe and my dog is Siren, she is about 4.5 years old.
She isnt pure bred husky. she is half husky half lab, although the husky is strong in her.

Last year, during the winter, her nose got cracked,raw, and dry and would bleed sometimes. I thought it was just because of my wood stove and started to apply aloe several times daily, it cleared up.

Again, this winter, it started again, and this time the aloe didnt work. I tried coconut oil, and this product called nose butter. I made my own salve with coconut, aloe, olive oil, plantain, comfrey, calendula... it all softens her nose, and somedays seemed like it was helping. she started to lose pigment in her nose, its almost completely pink... I began doing research, read about zinc deficiency and started giving her zinc everyday,I was givign her 15 mg a day. I did this for a month and still a problem. I began to read about canine lupus.

It then started to spread to her eyes and down to her lips. I took her to the vet. The vet agreed it seemed like auto immune disease. We didnt do any tests, but started her on a treatment of niacinamide, fish oil, anti biotics, and my boyfriends homeopathic vet also send me a bottle of meds too. I have been doing this daily for about a week and a half, and it got worse, which isnt incredibly surprising, we were trying to stay away from steroids but with how bad it was we were thinking she was going to need them this time.

It started to climb up her snout and theres more in her eyes. Went and picked up prednisone today. she has her taking 30 mg twice a day for now. seems high?

I usually try to do most things naturally and am afraid of a lot of western medicine. well... just skeptical and distrusting.

I was just wondering if anyone has dealt with this situation, or has given this high of a dose of predisone to their dog, or any experience with predisone at all? How fast does it work with clearing it up.

My poor babe, im worried...

Thank you
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amymeme
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amymeme

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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySat May 23, 2015 3:58 pm

Has your vet done any tests for lupus other than clinical exam? In humans, at least, there are specific autoantibodies that suggest a dx of lupus.

30 mg prednisone - for reference (again no experience with dogs and pred - plenty with myself.) When I am having an asthma exacerbation, I take 40 mg per day for 10 days. That is considered a rather modest dose - husband says they can go WAAAAYYYY higher, depending on the indication, so 30 mg twice a day in a dog does not seem super high but is probably a moderately high dose.

If her conditions is steroid responsive, you should begin to see results in only a couple of days. She may have dramatic increase in appetite (as in, everyting under the sun Rolling Eyes ) will like gain weight, some of which is water retention. Once she comes off, she may pee like a banshee for a few days (hmmm - I never saw a banshee pee..or for that matter, a banshee Laughing )

If this is not autoimmune, but infectious (as in ringworm) then she will get really worse...one way to make a dx, I guess.

How long does he want her on the pred?
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySat May 23, 2015 5:52 pm

doc said for 14 days... i hope hope hope it fixes her right up. beginning to feel real worried for her. i miss her beautiful nose. the vet doesnt seem to be a huge advocate for using steroids unless its necessary, were trying homepathic remedy, and supplements and antibiotics... but that supposedly would take a month to help and it started to spread. so we went for the steroids.

Im scared of having to have her on prednisone all the time. Read some frightening stories on the internet of dogs being on it for years and losing all their muscle and what not. Probably not smart to go read horror stories when i am already worried....
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySun May 24, 2015 11:25 am

I am going to attach a picture. Im wondering if we are wrong and it isnt auto immune disease, if it could be zinc deficiency... i tried giving her zinc now im wonderign if it was too low of zinc to make much of a difference...

if thats the case, and she is on prednisone (which lowers your immune system, correct?) than wouldnt it get worse, with prednisone?  canine lupus, and prednisone 11229420_850509701708991_7871684761035863589_o
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amymeme
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amymeme

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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySun May 24, 2015 2:24 pm

I don't know much about the zinc deficiency thing - other members here, do, but weekends tend to not have many people posting. Use the search function above for zinc deficiency. One woman dealing with unknown nose fur issues is simplify - you could check out here messages, too.

I do not believe prednisone will make it worse if its zinc. Do know that zinc tx takes a while for noticeable change. Also try jbealers posts - I think she had some zinc info.

The problem with prednisone is that it can make a lot of things better - it is the mother of all anti-inflammatories so sometimes you may get a red herring with the problem getting better but is not autoimmune and there might be a better, more focused tx. However, when you need prednisone, it is most definitely a life saver!
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyTue May 26, 2015 8:26 am

Ive read the threads about zinc deficiency. Ive read a lot about it on the net as well. I think Im going to take her to the vet today. Today is the 4th day of prednisone and I think she is getting worse! Seems like its climbing up the snout even more. This hasnt been escalating this fast... Before I took her to the vet the first time, it was very gradual. She seems very depressed and protective over it.

no one?
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyTue May 26, 2015 9:31 am

If it is getting rapidly worse on prednisone, I would suspect infection. My very first thought it ringworm - has he done any skin scrapings?

Has any testing been done? I don't mean just clinical exam but skin scrapings, biopsies, blood tests for autoantibodies etc? I don't like to run up a vet bill but when the problem is not straight forward and is progressing, it is time to use the tools of modern medicine.

I'm sorry to hear her nose is getting worse Sad
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Rocio_Caballero
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyTue May 26, 2015 7:59 pm

I'm sorry to hear about Siren Sad

I've had some experience with prednisone, although it was for a different reason. My dog, Lycus, had become severely anemic due to a tick disease and so he was put on Prednisone for a month as well as antibiotics. I was very weary of it as well, but for 14 days it doesn't sound too bad. Just make sure she is weaned off of it instead of stopping it cold turkey. There is also an iron supplement you could try giving her Liqui - Tinic

I've personally never seen what your pup is experience so I have no idea myself what could be causing it. Hopefully she gets better soon!
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyTue May 26, 2015 8:41 pm

thanks guys. I sometimes worry too easily and am trying to make sure I differentiate between me worrying obsessively, and it actually being worse. I didnt put as much salve on her nose yesterday because some part of me thought maybe her nose was itchier when i put it on. She also licks her nose obsessively when I put it on, so I was worried she would aggravate it by all the licking.

This morning I washed it with warm water and put some aloe, vitamin e and salve on it and it definitely makes it *look* less like its getting worse. I am taking several pictures a day to make sure its not getting worse. Talked to the vet today, and she said I wouldn't see much of a change from the prednisone for about 2 weeks.

So, for now, I am going to try and stay calm and patient and keep a very close eye on it. If it gets worse, I am going to take her in to check for infection....wouldn't it smell bad if it was infected?

I havent gotten any other tests... I was recommended this vet from another vet that my friends and I all use... for this particular problem. I spose she has experience with auto immune diseases.

The vet seemed pretty sure it was auto immune disease and said she likes to try to stay away from biopsy unless we cant figure out what it is. I appreciate a vet not immediately jumping to a bunch of expensive tests.

I will absolutely do what I need to, to find the problem and fix it.

I feel like she is very depressed, but, I read prednisone can make the dog lack energy, so maybe thats what that is? is that true? anyone had experience with that? She doesnt even get excited when I come home from work. Lays around all day and night. Normally she gets very pent up if we dont go for a hike or a long walk every 3 days.

I really appreciate forums and everyone on them that takes the time to read and comment, its a huge help to be able to reach out to other.

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Rocio_Caballero
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyTue May 26, 2015 10:44 pm

When I had started my dog on Prednisone, he was already very lethargic so I definitely can't say whether the Prednisone made it worse or not. Although, with the Prednisone and antibiotics, I saw huge positive changes in my dog after one week.

I completely understand your worries. It's natural for us to be this way over our pets. I'm definitely the same way as well. I'm also not a big advocate of steroids but sometimes in certain situations you just do anything in hopes of better results.

One thing I would like to suggest as well is the blood work exam. That way they can see how her red and white blood cells are off. It can also give a better and more accurate indication of whether it is an autoimmune disorder or not. Of course, this is all up to your decision.
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silvertoast
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyThu May 28, 2015 11:41 am

my dog has zrd zinc defeciency    had sores around eyes and mouth.  vet did the samething as yours  tried antibotics and predizone.  there was improvement on the higher does of predizone but caused her to pee in her sleep and sleep all of the time.   did some research on my own and found out about zrd.   i now give her  nutrazinc powder from howlingdogalaska.com  and a vitamin e amino acid liquid in her food everyday.  and now is hardly noticable and the vet agrees.    it tends to flare up again when she starts to blow winter coat and then summer coat or when i miss a day of the supplements.  she still scratches at the area and some times will cause the white fur on her face to turn a little pink but nothing like it was when it first started happening.    
canine lupus, and prednisone 20130706_165859_zpshtxy6ntx
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyThu May 28, 2015 7:03 pm

Hey all! I think Siren is getting better! her nose is more a light light pink now instead of an irritated dark pink.... Doesnt seem to be gettin worse anymore. I started giving her zinc everyday as well as the antibiotics, steroids, vitamin e, fish oil, and niacinamide. I also started to give her comfey poultices. and I am not sure how much of this positive change has to do with what, since I am doing so many things, but she started showing improvement the day after I started comfrey.

Definitely going to get some blood work done, and change her diet/supplement intake to make sure its perfectly fitting for her. I want her to be as healthy as she can be!

Thanks!
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crowjane
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PostSubject: update   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySun Jun 14, 2015 12:41 pm

So, sirens nose has been fluctuating,after my last post about it getting better, it got worse, and better, and in different ways, it can be confusing...

I personally made the decision to lower the prednisone from 60 to 50 mg a day, because that is whats giving me the most anxiety right now, she isnt herself at all... anyway, i was about to schedule a biopsy tomorrow... and she still might be getting a biopsy, but then Ive noticed over the past few days her nose has gotten little black spots and it seems that MIGHT be her pigment coming back?!?!

anyones opinion? do you think its her pigment coming back?! is she getting her precious nose back!?

I have been documenting with lots of dated pictures and calendar of different meds and topical solutions i have been applying if anyone ever comes across this problem.

canine lupus, and prednisone 1557278_861655207261107_3164358639907764454_o
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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySun Jun 14, 2015 9:51 pm

I have no experience with this but that does look like the pigment is coming back, I'd go ahead with the biopsy though. My Kohdi was losing pigment on his lip sometime back that I was concerned was a zinc deficiency but I think I figured out his cause...chewing on the rim of the big plastic bottles he plays with, don't know if it's a plastic allergy or simply was being rubbed off but the chewing on the bottles stopped and so did the pigment loss, next time he got into the chewing plastic bottles, pigment loss started again. So I'm 99.9% sure that was Kohdi's issue. Good luck getting all this figured out. And thank you for keeping this thread updated, it helps us all.
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySun Jul 12, 2015 4:41 pm

heres an update. so her nose is getting better and better. ill post a pic. shes reacting to the steroids, it just took 3 or 4 weeks to really start seeing changes.... the pred is serious though... she has gained 10 pounds, she has no energy what so ever, seems anxious, pants (its also summer time in western nc) seems weak and depressed. an entirely different dog. shes on 40 mg a day still and its been 7 weeks since she started the pred.

She also started getting other skin lesions/infections poppin up all over her. Took her to the vet and they said they werent surprised, the immunosupressant is allowing normal bacteria to form superficial pyoderma. they gave me a antiseptic shampoo... chlorhexadine is what its called. and cephalexin (antibiotics) to help with that....

he said her nose is 90% healed and theres just one little active spot and if i just keep on with the 40 mg, until its 100% healed and then ween her down until we find a small dosage for her to be on for the rest of her life....

I think what I am going to shoot for though, is wait til its fully healed (hopefully a week or two) and start taking her down and at 20 mg... start transitioning into supplements and a more holistic approach to keep it under control. i will make sure to keep you all updated, if anyone comes across this i would like to be as big of a help as i can. its been quite difficult seeing her like this and constantly worrying about her for months. There are times where I feel like she will never be healthy again.

canine lupus, and prednisone 11731752_876838645742763_4422738768471578777_o
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySun Jul 12, 2015 6:19 pm

I find it confusing that dog is more lethargic on prednisone. In people, myself included, prednison leads to a heightened sense of well-being, an abundance of energy - it is only on the downward taper that the crash comes. The weight gain - absolutely. Increases appetite exponentially - I become a human vacuum cleaner lol! As well as fluid retention.
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySat Aug 01, 2015 4:03 pm

sirens nose is almost back to normal! its been 10 weeks since i started the prednisone. a worrysome few months its been, but i am so happy to see her nose back to normal!

shes currently on 30 mg a day now but im taking her to 20 in a couple days, 2 weeks, down to 10, and then we will try to get her off completely.

I am putting this info here so that if someone ever comes across this problem they dont have to go through the confusion I did.

I wish the vet would have explained what to expect from the prednisone more. I was unaware that it would take so long to work. I didnt know how high this dose was considered. I didnt know the long term effects. I didnt know that it could take a month to work. So it was all very confusing for me and being the crazy person I am, I kept giving her suplements and nose salves and herbal stuff. and it just made it more confusing. I eventually just gave her prednisone and used a and d ointment to sooth her nose when she was still in need of it.

she was on anti biotics for 2 weeks and her skin lesions were healed. but 4 days after her antibiotics were done, they came back, so she has to be on antibiotics for as long as the pred is high enough to cause skin lesions. super annoying.

But I am so happy to see her nose back to normal and I cannot wait until she has her energy back and we can get her to lose the weight. she is HUGE HUGE HUGE.

I am trying very hard to make sure she doesnt eat too much but she is the hungriest dog I have ever met, pretty insane. she has no manners anymore.. shell just take what she wants.

amy- she has had hardly any interest in leaving the house at all since we started the prednisone.
which is not normal at all. we usually need to go out somewhere really fun every 3 days.
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptySat Aug 01, 2015 4:04 pm

oops meant to post a pic too....


canine lupus, and prednisone 11828686_887241831369111_3591924793787468751_n
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crowjane
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyMon Oct 05, 2015 9:34 am

Update on siren:

When I tried to take her to 5, her nose started to flare up again. Raised back to 10, and I am afraid she has developed Cushings Syndrome from too much prednisone. She lost a significant amount of hair on her tail yesterday. After doing some reading I also found that being pot bellied is a symptom as well and stealing food.which she has been doing.

I thought the size of her belly was abnormal but I knew the pred makes her hungrier and I have been monitering her food intake and making sure I dont leave anything out for her to steal but shes still HUGE.

Taking her to the vet today, but, I am pretty unhappy with him I feel like there are things I should have been informed about that I was not informed about, maybe I didnt ask the right questions, they just always seem to be too busy to put muchthought and care into sirens specific case.

This is a tricky spot to be in. The cushings disease is from flooding her body with too much cortisol. It is supposedly fully reversible by getting her off the prednisone, but, then the auto immune flare up comes back. I want to mention cushings is usually caused by a tumor on adrenal gland or base of brain that emits too much cortisol. weve basically given her the symptoms of cushings by giving her too much cortisol and doing what those tumors would do.

I found a holistic vet I am going to try and I think the best route to take is get her the hell off the prednisone and find a good balance or diet, lifestyle, and supplements to curb the autoimmune.

She has been on prednisone for 6 months, and although her nose looks a lot better which NEEDED to happen because it has escalated to a very uncomfortable point for her, I do not like this drug, very scary and confusing, and I thought Id be able to get her off of it, I hope this info helps someone one day, because this is has been pretty torturous for me and poor sweet siren, and it just seems like I will never see my playful, fit, healthy dog again.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyMon Oct 05, 2015 11:32 am

Yes, unfortunately, this is the double edged sword of prednisone. I have what is called a "buffalo hump" on my upper back - its an accumulation of fat over the C7 vertebra area. Also, fine, downy hair all over the sides of my face, my skin bruises and tear unbelievably easy. I always look like an abused wife Mad Putting my hand in a cereal box to pull out the bag is enough to tear my forearm skin. BUT - breathing trumps skin. Or as we say in this house, breathing is under-rated Rolling Eyes

And with lupus - you can have kidney problems among other things, not just the hair on her nose thing. Sometimes, you just have to accept compromises.

I'm sorry you have to cope with this and hope it gets better.
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Kodibear
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PostSubject: Re: canine lupus, and prednisone   canine lupus, and prednisone EmptyWed Jan 20, 2016 11:19 pm

Kodi (a pure bred siberian)was diagnosed with lupus January 2014 and was put on prednisone.  I probably didn't ask the right questions in the beginning. This is the first dog I've had with a long term medical condition.  By August he'd put on weight so we cut back his food. Still dealing with the weight issue.  Now he's having another ugly side effect of long-term prednisone. Fur thinning/loss. It was then, out of frustration I found Long life Pet Suppliments. He's only been taking them for a little more than a month but I think it's helping. It's a bit pricey but if you're still looking for something different this might be worth it. I'm still giving Kodi a half a 10 mg prednisone every other day. I've also added fish oil to his diet for his skin/fur.
My frustration is my vet, while not against alternative/natural meds she says he will still have to take the steroids.  I'm hoping to eventually get him off that. The side effects are terrible.
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