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 Thoughts on vaccinations

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Sarah20
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PostSubject: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:07 pm

Hey all! I have done so much research and heard so many opinions on over vaccinations for dogs. Yes, I do believe our pets are overly vaccinated. Example, I got my puppy at 8weeks. At 6 weeks, his breeder gave him his first set of puppy vaccines (distemper, parvo, adenovirus). He said have him get his second round on Nov 13th so yesterday we went in and the vet said he will need another 2 rounds because she believes in the 8 week, 12 week, and 16 week rule. She said if your dog receives his last vaccine at 14 weeks, he will be too young to get the antibodies he needs to protect him. I trust her because she took care of our previous husky. I asked her if this wasn't over vaccinated my puppy and she said no. He did receive bordatella only because there's a bad outbreak here. I am wondering if after these puppy vaccines (he will get 4 in total 6 weeks, 10.5 weeks, 14 weeks and 16 weeks) if I should just titer test afterwards. Any thoughts?
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 1:20 pm

My vet gives a booster at 1 yr on core vaccines and then every 3 years until age 7 and stops, except for rabies which in our state is every 3 years.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:17 pm

Hey Sarah, I am in the same boat as you. Our pups are pretty close in age. Sofie will be 14 weeks old on Monday. My breeder did 2 sets of shots and recommended 3 sets total. I am also in the belief that dogs are over vaccinated. Soooooo I went looking here, and came across some interesting threads, and one led me to AAHA site. According to that site, core shots are done to set up pups immune system, and really doesn't protect the pup, but because of the mothers immunity given to pups through milk, pups are "technically" safe up to around 10-16 weeks old. According to AAHA, 3 sets are fine, as in 8, 12, 16, and that if pup gets one set 12 weeks or before and then second set after 14 weeks they will be fine. Quite a lot of jibberish to go through. Legalities, laws, etc.....bottom line, if pup gets 2 sets of core vaccines pre 14 weeks, and last set between 14 and 16 weeks they are protected, since MDA (short for mother's immunity) is typically gone from the pup between 14 and 16 weeks old. AAHA, goes on to say that MDA interferes with initial vaccines, or blocks, that core shots "can" be done twice, once to set up pup while still having MDA and then the other between 14 and 16 weeks. So, in my case, since Sofie has had 2 sets and she will be close to 15 weeks on her nextt set, I will tell my vet that is all I will do and agree on until her yearly core vaccines, as Amy described. Also inquire about their rabies protocol, needs to be done after 16 weeks, according to AAHA, and then at 1 year and then every 3 years if your vet administers the 3 year shot. My vet tells pet parents rabies are to be done yearly on adult dogs, yet they are giving the three year, and I will squash that idea. Ask questions, and review things with your vet. I think anymore vets are afraid of lawsuits like human doctors. Why else would mine say they give the one year, yet actually use the three year. They gave me wrong info, as in they said rabies is high in this county, when in fact over a 5 year published state health logs there has been one case in a raccoon, and zero cases for dogs and cats. To me that is not a high incidence of rabies.

I too would like to hear what others think on puppy protocol for core shots...........
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Sarah20
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:28 pm

Thanks Renee. I am VERY relcutant in giving my dog 4 puppy vaccines according to what my vet wants done: so in Shiloh's case: at 6 weeks he was vaccinated with his breeder, then yesterday his 2nd set at 10.5 weeks, and then his final set of vaccines at 14 weeks, NO MORE. BUT my vet said, well, he will need one more set of vaccines AFTER 14 week (totalling 4 instead of the 3). I really don't want to do this but I want to make sure that after his final set at 14 weeks that he WILL be protected into adulthood. I plan on giving him a 3 yr Rabies when he turns 16 weeks. What do you think? Are you only going to give Sofie 3 sets in total even though like Shiloh she was vaccinated earlier than 8 weeks?
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:46 pm

Sarah, yes I will site AAHA site and tell my vet to read it. I had a wonderful vet in Florida who respected my wishes and had me sign waivers so he wasn't liable should anything go wrong because of my reluctance to over vaccinate. Keeping an open dialog with your vet, and ensuring them you take full responsibility for anything that may arise in not vaccinating again (the 4th round), should be sufficient. My issue stems from our very first cat we had. She was repeatably vaccinated in the neck, her first 3 years. She had a tumor at age 6, and the vet that I love so dearly said it was through over vaccinating in the same site, from the previous vet. My suggestion is to check the AAHA web site and see if your vet is listed with them, mine is not, if they are or not ask them to read up on their recommendations, that was set in 2011. In my belief, even if the vet is not associated with AAHA after 4 years of the same recommendations, most if not all vets should be aware of this. If your vet is not ask them to be familiar with it. If it gives you peace of mind give 3 sets, making sure the 3rd is between 14 and 16 weeks, and then get the titers done. I am fine with the 3 sets of shots.

Again, this was mentioned in a thread here, entitled 4 sets of shots? And also would still love to hear what others think.....Also may I add, my current vet, I really do not care for, but any "good" vets near me is a 65+ mile one way trip for me. He gave my older dog Miya her rabies at 16 weeks like she should, then her one year booster, then a month later when I took her in for her snake bite shot they gave her another rabies shot. I have since decided on my own to read everything I can and base my decisions on what is recommend through several sources that all say the same thing and pretty much tell my vet what is to be done vs what he "thinks" needs to be done.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 2:51 pm

Just note what your state law is regarding rabies shots - some say yearly, some say after the initial 1 year shot, every 3 years is fine. It is my understanding that the 3 yr vaccine is the same vaccine as the 1 yr, its just the state laws that are different. I could be wrong on the "same vaccine" thing.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:40 pm

Amy, I am not sure as well. Here is the convo I had with my vet and see if this makes sense?

Me to vet...Why is our county behind the times and still giving the 1 year rabies shot?

Vet....We are giving the 3 year rabies shot, we just do not tell our customers this, because rabies is a real bad problem here in this county so we are over vaccinating against rabies.

Me....so if I know my dog is covered, and she gets tangled up with a wild animal she is fine?

Vet....No she would still need a booster shot if she may have been bit by a questionable animal.

Me....so what you are saying is, she gets a 3 year rabies shot, and if she is under my watchful eye, she doesn't need the rabies shot every year?

Vet....We recommend she gets it every year, even tho she is covered for 3 years, because rabies is so prevalent in our county.

When I looked up rabies cases through the state of Texas health department, there was one case in the last 5 years of a raccoon, within a very short distance from a neighboring county, which had 0 cases. No cases in my county for dogs or cats. This tells me, that they want more money and are over vaccinating, and that the three year is effective for three years. A suggestion, from another source, was to ask to pay for the yearly tag, but not to vaccinate yearly. Now, maybe I did not understand what he said, but to me they are covered for 3 years when they use the 3 year shot, and that a one year shot exists. NO?
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 3:47 pm

Amy I found this.....So as far as Texas goes, I would be ok doing every 3 years. As far as I can tell the county I am in has no stricter law. Every state can be different.

On February 27, 2003, the Texas Board of Health approved amendments to Texas Administrative Code Ch. 169, Rabies Control and Eradication. The rabies vaccination schedule will still require that dogs and cats be

vaccinated against rabies by 4 months of age and
be given a booster one year after the initial vaccination.

Following these first 2 vaccinations, dog & cats can be vaccinated at either 1-year or 3-year intervals, depending on the type of rabies vaccine used. Local ordinances may have more stringent requirements.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 4:40 pm

The protocol following a currently vaccinated dog following rabies exposure is give a booster than observe for 45 days. In a previously vaccinated dog out of date, it is up to the discretion of the local health dept whether to boost and observe or boost and quarantine at a secure facility at owner's expense OR euthanze. An unvaccinated dog is usually euthanzed though you may be able to get secure quarantine at owner's expense.

If your vet won't give you a 3 yr shot, can you find a petco, petsmart or tractor supply vaccine clinic that WILL administer the 3 yr shot?

It may well be that the informal protocol in your vet's practise is to account for owner's that may let dogs run loose who may have a rabies exposure without the owner's awareness. The latter is something I worry about with Ami and Archer running loose over the 4 acres. It is quite possible for them to have an exposure and me not know about it. I asked my vet about this and she assured me that as long as he is current, he is ok (back when Ami killed the raccoon, I frantically researched everything - a Canadian vet recommends that, for high risk dogs, ie outdoor in a known rabies endemic area, that they receive a 4 mo, 1 yr, a 3 year, than repeat the 3 yr at 2 years and then every 3 years after that. My vet saw no reason to repeat the 3 years at 2 - I am mulling that over as rabies is almost universally fatal and a particularly nasty way to go. I have not made a decision on that, yet.
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Playing with the Big Dogs
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 8:04 pm

With the puppies one of the big reasons they give so many is that it's impossible to tell exactly how long they are protected by the antibodies in the colostrum. Because colostrum is only in the milk right after birth and it is the one that has antibodies. Now depending on how much they have how strong it was ect determines how long the puppies are protected. There isn't any really way to tell if they are still effective so vets vaccinate puppies often with the goal that whenever the protaction from there mom is gone that they will be safe. Now it is kind of a gamble in that if Mom's antibodies are still kicking the shots are basically worthless. So they vaccinate puppies starting with as soon as they might not be safe and going to a little after mom's antibodies might still be kicking around. With puppies the slight over vaccination is to protect they from things like parvo that still kills dogs.

That being said I do feel like adult dogs are over vaccinated and I wish my vet was as cool as Ami's.
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Sarah20
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sat Nov 14, 2015 9:52 pm

I had a conversation with my vet today who booked my dog for his 3rd set of vaccines Dec 7th (he will be 14 weeks plus1 day). She strongly recommends I get him a 4th set 3-4 weeks after. I really don't think it's necessary. We are Canadian but go down south carolina in the winter so he will be getting his 1yr Rabies shot around 15.5 weeks old. I understand why vets want to vaccinate until 16wks but in my dog's case I truly feel 4 rounds is too much. I think Renee would agree with me on this one since she is in the same situation with her dog Sofie.
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aljones
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:23 pm

I'll finally comment here on a very interesting thread.  Of course you have to be aware of what your state or province requires - some 32 states have opted to allow vaccination for rabies on a three year basis.  Few have opted for anything except the three rounds of vaccinations for puppies and none that I've found (and I've looked at several but not all) require four.

Sarah, you have the unique challenge examining the laws of two states (and possibly the intervening states) and two countries - you have my sympathy!

Once you've found what is required (by looking at the state, then county, then municipality bylaws - btw, most of these are available on line) you can then try to begin a meaningful dialogue with your vet. Renee and I happen to live in one of the best (and worst!) states. Best because we're given quite a bit of latitude by the state about what we can do with our dogs and living in the rural areas, it's the state law that guides us. Worst because once our dogs have gotten out of control the results are largely legally dictated and beyond our control.

I've switched my dogs from the local vet to one who is further away - and I'm not particularly ecstatic about either of them - because the local vet has chosen to use intranasal vaccine for bordatella and Avalanche gets really upset when the vet tried to administer it. (that, btw, is an understatement!)

If your vet requires more than the legally required minimum without good cause, in my mind, it's time to go looking for another vet. For an example, I board my dogs with the vet when I can't take them with me (trips to the VA hospital, for example.) She requires that any dog she boards have a current bordatella vaccination - it's not required by law but logical, so I allow that without qualm.

To sum up my, probably, too lengthy post. After looking at the laws to determine what vaccinations are required, I talk to my vet(s) explaining that I want the minimum required by law (and common sense). If they disagree, I remind them that *I'm* the person paying the bill, if they were to demand that I do more than the minimum then they'd have to justify it to my satisfaction or I'd have to go looking for another vet. (and thankfully, both the vets I have used recently agree - er, recommend - minimum vaccination.

Do your homework and good luck!

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Sarah20
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sun Nov 15, 2015 12:47 pm

I don't have an issue giving my dog his rabies shot at 15.5 weeks, especially since we will be travelling to the US before Xmas. I have a problem with my vet telling me that after my puppy received his 3rd round vaccines at 14 wks (dec 7th) that she recommends he gets a 4th round 3-4 weeks later when we are in the states. I don't think it's necessary. Also, does anyone know when Titer testing should be done on a dog to ensure he is protected?
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Sun Nov 15, 2015 1:40 pm

Sarah, Canada - as a country - doesn't appear to have any laws regarding vaccinations, that's left to the provinces and counties. If the province doesn't require it and you don't think it's necessary (and the state you're going to doesn't require the 4th round) then why are you even concerned?  I'd tell my vet "Not on my watch" and let it go at that.

To try to answer your other question which is interesting in that I can't find a definitive answer - the following is taken from Truth4pets.org

Quote :
When should you test titers?

Test titers no sooner than 2 weeks after vaccination.  Puppies may be tested before vaccination to establish when maternal immunity wanes and following the last vaccination after 14-16 weeks of age to determine if immunity was established.

Do titers need to be repeated yearly, every three years or only one time once a positive titer is established?

W. Jean Dodds, DVM, who tests titers in her Hemopet lab, wrote in her article Treating Adverse Vaccine Reactions : “Some veterinarians have challenged the validity of using vaccine titer testing to assess the immunologic status of animals against the common, clinically important infectious diseases.

With all due respect, this represents a misunderstanding of what has been called the “fallacy of titer testing”, because research has shown that once an animal’s titer stabilizes it is likely to remain constant for many years.  Properly immunized animals have sterilizing immunity that not only prevents clinical disease but also prevents infection, and only the presence of antibody can prevent infection.”

That's not a real answer, but maybe a bit of help ...

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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 2:58 pm

Here you go...I've only skimmed this so I may have missed something, this is a highly technical document but is the latest set of vaccine recommendations by the AAHA:

 https://www.aaha.org/public_documents/professional/guidelines/caninevaccineguidelines.pdf

In particular, if my quick read is correct, if he gets his core vaccines over 14 weeks, he should be free enough of MDA that the vaccine is effective.

  If a puppy receives the first dose in the initial series of core
vaccines between 6 and 8 wk of age but fails to return until 12 or
14 wk of age, administration of two doses, at least 2 wk apart, is
recommended. In contrast, if the same puppy is >14 wk of age
when returning to the veterinarian, administration of a single
dose of an infectious vaccine is expected to immunize.



CDV (MLV) or rCDV Puppies should be vaccinated every
3–4 wk between the ages of 6 and
16 wk (e.g., at 6, 10, and 14 wk, or
8, 12, and 16 wk). To minimize the
risk of maternal antibody interference
with vaccination, the final dose of the
initial series should be administered
between 14 and 16 wk of age,
regardless of the product used.


Based on this I would defer either defer the 14 week vaccine 1 week and keep puppy totally exposure free from 13-15 weeks (or whatever the incubation period is) or go for the extra vaccine - Greater than 14 weeks appears to be the fulcrum between iffy and assured immunization.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:20 pm

Hi Amy. I read the same publication and the tables provided. What I understood is exactly what you wrote above about "puppies should be vaccinated every 3-4 wks between 6 and 16 wks.....) So in my case, Shiloh was vaccinated at 6 weeks, then 3 weeks later his got his 2nd round (10.5 wks old-Nov 13th) and is due on Dec 7th for his final round of vaccines, making him 14 weeks old and 1 day which according to this AAHA publication is suitable, unless I am understanding it wrong lol:) My vet wants him to get a fourth round but as mentioned above, I am very reluctant in doing so. Also because we are traveling to the states, he will be getting rabies at 15.5 wks (dec 16th). My vet told me that the timing of vaccines is time sensitive so I don't think holding off on his 3rd vaccine for one week is a good idea.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 4:26 pm

Sarah20 wrote:
Hi Amy. I read the same publication and the tables provided. What I understood is exactly what you wrote above about "puppies should be vaccinated every 3-4 wks between 6 and 16 wks.....) So in my case, Shiloh was vaccinated at 6 weeks, then 3 weeks later his got his 2nd round (10.5 wks old-Nov 13th) and is due on Dec 7th for his final round of vaccines, making him 14 weeks old and 1 day which according to this AAHA publication is suitable, unless I am understanding it wrong lol:) My vet wants him to get a fourth round but as mentioned above, I am very reluctant in doing so. Also because we are traveling to the states, he will be getting rabies at 15.5 wks (dec 16th). My vet told me that the timing of vaccines is time sensitive so I don't think holding off on his 3rd vaccine for one week is a good idea.

I would only hold off IF you can be assured of keeping him away from all sources of infection both before he's due and until he gets the next shot and 5-7 days after...if it were me, since these diseases can be fatal for young dogs, I think I would go for the extra shot at 16 weeks or at least make sure his shot is somewhere midway of the 14-16 week interval. It really looks like some considerable thought was put into the intervals. I quess if I were a breeder, I would do the 8-12-16 week to assure the final shot is protective.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:12 pm

Amy, thank you for posting that link up. I sometimes have problems with doing so. Sofie turned 14 weeks old today, and will be getting her shots on Friday. Interestingly enough, I did go to the AVMA site thinking, perhaps, they recommend different to the AAHA site, and the AVMA site refers you back to the AAHA site. So Sofie will be 14 weeks and 4 days old, so I am going to have the discussion with my vet on that being her last set of core shots. Also one thing to note Sarah, I thought I read on the AAHA site that pups need to be at LEAST 16 weeks old when getting the first rabies shot. I know you mentioned yours will be a few days shy of 16 weeks. Something you may want to check on. Amy I agree with the rabies schedule for pups, 16 weeks, then the booster. I just feel for Miya she doesn't need the 3 year rabies shot every year. To me that is over vaccinating. If Miya was an outside dog, I would consider asking for the yearly.

Intersting subject. Thank you Sarah for posting up the thread!!!!!
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:20 pm

Renee - I would bring the vaccine thing to your vet.  I see no reason why after her 1yr shot she can't go to 3 years.  If they are being prickish - find somewhere else to get the shot!

EDIT: I would say to the vet, in my sweetest voice possible, after having verified with your new source (petco, tractor supply, etc, you don't want egg on your face) "OK, thank you for your opinion, but I decline. Petco/Tractor Supply whatever will be happy to give me my 3 yr shot."
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 5:52 pm

Renee: No problem! I wanted to post this thread to see what others in my situation have done. I spoke to several vet techs and they all tell me why is your vet making your puppy get a 4th round? So I always reply what my vet told us: "I recommend a 4th round becuase he started he vaccinations too early at 6 weeks." I would be very interested in hearing about what your vet will you Renee when you decide to stop giving her puppy vaccines after she finished her 3rd round this week. Also, I did read that Rabies should be done at 16wks but I was told it was okay given that he will be 4 days short of 16 weeks. Also, I find it very bizarre that your vet is making you get rabies every year. My puppy will get his 1 yr rabies shot late december and then it's 3 years after that. I wouldn't have my dog get vaccinated for yearly rabies. Question: do you take Sofie for walks around the neighborhood even though she isn't finished her puppy vaccines?

Amy: as for holding off, we take him for walks around the neighborhood, not allowed to touch other dogs, posts, hydrants, etcc... We let him run around in a nearby enclosed park but we keep a very watchful eye on him to make he's not getting into anything. He also has our backyard where he likes to run. There is always the debate of: "do I keep my dog indoors and not socialize until after 16wks or until they are done vaccinations?" I don't think that's fair given that the most important period for socialization occurs between 8-12 weeks. I think it's a risk we take.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:06 pm

Sarah, yes we do, however, we live in a rural setting with all the neighbor dogs in their own homes. we walk our dirt road. So I am not as concerned as someone who lives in a town or city setting. I was completely clueless when Miya was a pup, and I think the main reason she was ok was because of no dogs around, and any that are around we know are fully vaccinated. I would be watchful though of public places, parvo virus lasts a significant amount of time. Also we have not taken her into any public settings. she has socialized with our friends and neighbors. The whole socialization thing, eh, I know it is important, but I don't imho, feel it makes you pup unsocial if you wait until after last round of shots. Even with Miya the most public place we took Miya was Petsmart, and I do believe she had all of her shots. So in reality Miya didn't get as much socialization as many dogs get, and yet is very friendly, and very respectful. It's reallyy all about training, again imho.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 6:13 pm

Sarah, one other thing about the socialization issue. My breeder would not release his pups until 10 weeks old, and many of the quality breeders will not until 12 weeks. If socialization is out the window after 12 weeks of age, most breeders would be failing their buyers, if that makes sense.
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PostSubject: Re: Thoughts on vaccinations   Mon Nov 16, 2015 9:33 pm

Renee: I agree. I am very carefuly where I take Shiloh: he gets walked around a few streets, no stopping at posts, hydrants or coming into contact with any dog. He likes to watch people go by, cars drive by etc.. Sometimes when he needs a good energy release, I walk him over to a park where they put boards up like a huge enclosed area and I let him run off leash with me right beside him and provided no one is around Smile As for socialization, I didn't take my previous husky to a dog park until he was 7 months old and he was just fine Smile Let me know what happens at your vet visit and the vaccines for Sofie Smile
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