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 New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.

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mellosmandu
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PostSubject: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Mon Aug 20, 2018 1:45 am

Just some concerns and questions for introducing a raw (specifically the PREY diet) to a 7-month-old. The reason for the interest in switching from kibble to the raw diet is our poor boy has a sensitive gut and the benefits of the prey raw diet seem like a great alternative for our pup.

My main question is do we stick to the 10% of his current body weight even if he's almost going on 8 months? Or rather would the 2% of his current body weight be more sufficient? I'm not 100% sure what his final weight will be because mostly everything the breeder told us about him turned out to be false scratch I've met the breeding parents in person and they were quite small for huskies, so his max weight was told it'd be anywhere from 40-45lbs but at his last vet visit (just at the end of last month) he weighed in at 50lbs, and my guess is that he's now somewhere around 53-55lbs.
I've been reading the rawfeddogs guide and it's fantastic, but I'm at a loss. The writer suggests giving thumbnail sizes of meat first to test for how the dog reacts to it (yet others suggest going "cold turkey" by just starting raw immediately?)? This would be with kibble correct? But from what I've read online there seems to be a heated debate on whether kibble should be mixed with raw feedings. I would just think the kibble with the raw food wouldn't be an accurate test as he's still getting kibble and it could affect how he digests the raw?

Although note, I've mentioned this another topic I posted previously, but he has been battling Giardia since he was 8wks old. We were told by the breeder he was wormed and tested negative for worms, but when we later saw the vet after a few days of having him (mostly due to the fact his diarrhea was pure liquid) he was apparently riddled with Giardia. He seems to have a resistant case, that we have spent a lot of time and money into curing and no luck so far. He does have episodes of it, so it's not constant diarrhea. We pretty much have been cleaning everything religiously since we had him March of this year. We will be seeing another vet (when my schedule allows it, fulltime college student here) to get a second opinion and see if this vet will have a better chance of clearing this for good.
WITH THAT ALL BEING SAID (lol), should he not be on the Raw Diet because of this? So far he hasn't had diarrhea in about 2 months almost, I just didn't want to try the new cocktail of meds his current vet wanted to use as it would cause a 50% chance of seizures and I felt all these meds have been rough on my pups body so far.


Last edited by mellosmandu on Mon Aug 20, 2018 2:04 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : missed a point and question)
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Mon Aug 20, 2018 11:18 am

You can go raw. The Giardia will not bother it. Raw is very easy to digest. As for mixing it with kibble there is nothing to worry about. Raw feeding community is a quality source on this topic. As for making the transition it is up to you. Since you have been battling digestion upset I would just go cold turkey so you can start heeling that gut. Slowly introduce the richer proteins like pork as they can cause loose stools but chicken and turkey tend to be easier starting meats. Prey model doesn't have the fillers like barf model does so I would start at the higher feeding amount and adjust from there. They tend to act really hungry on raw at first as they get used to not having the fillers but ultimately you want to watch weight and form and go from there. Some vets are not raw friendly and will try to talk you out of it so be prepared to have to defend your feeding choice.

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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Mon Aug 20, 2018 5:51 pm

@TwisterII So no need for the slow introduction with kibble, just go cold turkey? We were thinking about just starting him on chicken (possibly drumsticks or bone in breasts) for the first couple of weeks and see how it does on it. We have given him pieces of raw chicken breast before and he gobbles it up, so i don't think he'll be picky about the switch.

With the higher percentage, should we possibly start at like 3% of his body weight? I just feel like 1.65lbs of raw food a day is a lot, but i guess we'll see how he does?
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:08 am

I feed prey model. I take it a bit slow going from kibble to raw. Day 1 1/3 of total food raw (that's 1/3 of what the total raw volume will be. Day 2 half raw. Day 3 2/3 raw. Day 4 100% raw.

I do give kibble as treats/ a supplement so that if the dog ever has to for a boarding or vet situation, it will eat the kibble. I also use berries and steamed vegetables as treats - a wild wolf would eat a few berries and such and, they do eat the stomach and intestine contents of whole animals so, I think it's beneficial to offer some sort of plant matter as treat, no more that 100 calories a day worth, usually just 25 to 50 calories worth.

As for how much, an average 100 lb wolf needs 2.5 lbs per day to survive, 7 lbs per day to reproduce and, can eat up to 22.5 lbs in a single meal. They can and do also go days without eating when they get that 22.5 lbs. for a 50 lb dog, I'd start at half the survival ration or, about 1.25 lbs per day and adjust from there depending on activity levels and how he's doing with that.

My wolfdogs 5 lbs per day in cool weather and cut that to 3 lbs in hot weather. Some days, they ask for more and, will take the whole 7 lbs in a day but, that's rare. When I can feed a whole deer to my four, they eat all of it in 1.5 days, then don't eat for 2-3 days afterwards. Perfectly natural for them, doesn't bother them in the least. (yes I offer food but, they never take it for a couple of days after a whole deer.)
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Tue Aug 21, 2018 3:35 pm

HI mellosmandu!

YEA! RAW!!! I love it!

10% of his body weight is a lot of food even for a 7 month old husky =P. I would gauge how much you should feed based on his weight. Are you happy with his weight right now? If so, I would do 2%. If you're happy with his weight but he's super high energy, than I would go 2.5%. If you think he could bulk up a bit, I would go 3%.

At 7months, if your husky is already 53-55lbs, I'll assume his ideal adult weight will be closer to 60 and you should probably use that in your calculations.

Therefore assuming an adult weight of 60lbs this is what I recommend feeding:
-Ideal weight (2%) = 1.2lbs/day total
-Ideal weight but high energy (2.5%) = 1.5lbs/day total
-Could gain a few pounds (3%) = 1.8lbs/day total

From experience I don't recommend slowly transitioning to RAW dog food. I always tell people that ask me to fast your dog for 24 hours, and then do a 100% switch. Start with simple proteins like turkey or chicken for a week and see how he/she does and then slowly start introducing other meats like beef, lamb, fish etc...once things have normalized. I also recommend some probiotics to help with digestion and some canned pure pumpkin to help with constipation or diarrhea in the beginning. I've had a lot of people get scared of raw during the transition because they mixed raw with kibble and they don't realize that raw is digested differently than kibble which causes upset stomach and consequently diarrhea. Fasting for 24 hours is also key to let the GI system rest and detox before the switch. I followed my instructions with my 8 month old husky who had baaaaaddd diarrhea the day before. 24 hours fast later, I did a 100% switch and his next poops 12 hours later were rock solid.

As for your pup's problems with Giardia I'm sorry but I don't have any advice from an all natural perspective to offer you. I know it's a nasty infection that is difficult to clear, and even once cleared your dog may very well always be a carrier and is at risk for flare ups again throughout his life span. I would defer to you vet for help...sorry!

Let us know how your RAW transition goes! I'm so excited for you!
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Wed Aug 22, 2018 5:45 pm

@bluemoods was there any issue with your pup doing the slow transition? I like your idea of still supplementing with kibble, my only concern is the price point as he goes through a 25lb of kibble in a month and it isn't exactly cheap No

@Husky911 I'm pretty happy with his weight right now, he looks and feels really healthy and sort of at a point where he "should be". He does tend to lose weight pretty easily unless that is mostly a puppy thing. It was a clear indicator on when we were supposed to bump up his food intake.

My only concern with the 24hr fast is that he's so young and is so food driven, plus it's hard when you have 3 other dogs in the house who aren't raw and will be still be eating. Could I possibly just skip his dinner the day before introducing the raw food? Yes, our current vet seems to have done pretty much all she can do, so when I'm able to afford to see another vet for a second opinion, I'll see where to go from there.
Do you use any supplements for your pup with her raw diet?
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:14 pm

A properly balanced raw diet should not need any supplementation unless your dog has something specific wrong to supplement for. Mine all have hip issues so get a fish oil supplement as well as a diet that includes fish. With your stomach upset I would at least start with a good probiotic supplement for now. You may be able to leave it out later.

He will be hungry whether you do the full 24 fast or just a single meal. The point is to let his insides have a rest before making the change. Probably need to feed the other dogs in a different room while fasting or take him out while they eat and do something fun to help keep his mind off the hunger.

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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Wed Aug 22, 2018 6:21 pm

@TwisterII good idea! He's already been on a probiotic + prebiotic supplement since we've had him, it's the Herbsmith's Microflora. I think we can just coat the chicken in it when we switch, just a matter of finding where we can get the best deal for the meat but still having it organic and of good quality.

I only mention supplements because he hasn't gotten the best bill of health from our vets, our current vet is worried about his kidney's (due to his blood-work) and his right knee wasn't forming as it should when we took him in at 8 weeks old (in all honestly i think he just managed to inherit all the worst possible genetics from his parents). I just want to make sure to introduce the right supplements early just in case it can alleviate anything as he ages.
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Wed Aug 22, 2018 11:33 pm

@Husky911 my main concern is fasting a puppy who is 7months old for a day, would this be okay?
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:21 am

Personally, I would just do a kibble and raw meal and be done with it. There is no digestion issue for most dogs. here is something to read, https://therawfeedingcommunity.com/2015/01/08/digest-this-kibble-may-actually-digest-faster-than-raw/ Feed what you feel comfy with, make sure it's balanced and make sure you don't over feed. The only thing I would watch for is too much fat too soon. If starting with chicken, especially thighs remove skin and most viable fat. Slowly add in fat by watching stools. The bone and pre/probiotics should keep tummy up to snuff.
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Thu Aug 23, 2018 2:28 am

No problem and for kibble, once you get to the end of converting to raw, it isn't much. I have 3 125 lb adults and one 50 lb pup, a 50 lb sack lasts me five weeks weeks for all of them. so for one, that 24 lb bag would last a long time. They only get 1/4 cup kibble per day, plus a few pieces stuffed in Kongs at bed time.

I like them to think it's a special food they can only have a little of, then if a boarding kennel or vet won't feed raw, they think they are in dog heaven for getting lots of the kibble. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Thu Aug 23, 2018 3:21 am

@MiyasMomma We decided to fast him just for dinner, and then just try to raw in the morning? We prepped him chicken drumsticks with all the skin removed with skinless breasts to add more meat, as the drumsticks don't seem substantial enough concerning meat. I'm just always hesitant because of his sensitive tum :/ Yeah we can coat his drumsticks in his probiotic.

@bluemoods yeah, we may mix it in kibble again later on just in case we need someone else to feed in the future and aren't able to do the raw :/ except it's usually $67-70 for a bag for us.
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Thu Aug 23, 2018 10:39 am

With needing that high dollar kibble, I'd just use it as treats, maybe a tablespoon per day or something, just enough to make it a special but daily treat.
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Thu Aug 23, 2018 12:41 pm

You need to get the organ meat in there pretry soon. Liver and another organ like kidney or spleen or lung. The raw in time will help with the kidneys as its high in moisture content and easier for the kidneys to process. Genetic issues are a sad challenge and why it's so important to work toward putting backyard breeders and miller's out of business. Hopefully with good balanced nutrition some of the growth issues will tighten up. They may never be perfect but diet can do a lot.

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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Fri Aug 24, 2018 12:34 am

Hi mellosmandu

Yes, I assure you fasting for 24 hours is completely safe.  I keep a diary of all of Echo's problems when he grew up and the first time I ever fasted him for 24 hours post diarrhea was at 7mths 4 days old with no problems.  It did wonders for settling his stomach whenever he would have a round of watery diarrhea.  And let me tell you his diarrhea was bad as a puppy.  I used hospital kidney basins to to slip under him as he was squatting to collect his liquid poops coming out of his ass, it was that bad -.-

As for supplements it all depends on what kind of raw you're feeding.  I go with a company that prepares everything for me and packages it in convenient 1lb packages.   This food has been carefully weighed out to contain 70% muscle meat, 10% organ meat, 10% bone content and 10% fruits and vegetables.  The only thing i have to do is supplement with some herring oil for his omega 3s.  Some products don't contain the fruit/vegetable blend incorporated into the meats, in which case I then need to add at the very least some kelp to make sure he gets all his nutrients.  Meat alone isn't enough to get all the trace elements/minerals that your dog needs.

Looks like you'll be switching him soon! Let us know how it goes!
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:17 am

@Husky911 yes we did decide to just skip dinner for him and start him raw the next day. He tends to fluctuate on his weight so I didn't feel right fasting him for that long. Mello (our pup) was the same way but mostly because of his Giardia... so I can attest to how horrible those pure liquid diarrhea bouts can be :/

I did find a company that would do it but it'd come out to $10 a day which I can't do cause of my budget. He's on just chicken right now, but after we see how the rest of the week goes we'll try introducing more slowly.
My partner and I decided to do the raw PREY model diet.
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Fri Aug 24, 2018 1:18 am

@TwisterII Should we wait after this week to introduce organ as it's his first time with raw? Just cause I've heard organs can be too rich for some dogs initially and should be used only once a week to avoid vomiting or diarrhea? Or am i misreading this LOL
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:11 am

hahahaha fair enough. I would recommend then that you rotate through a wide variety of meats to make sure you make-up for the loss of certain minerals/elements that are not found in certain meat types. A general rule of thumb is at least 3 different types. Like red meats (i.e. beef, lamb, kangaroo), poultry (turkey, chicken, duck), and seafood (salmon, white fish, herring, etc)...I typically rotate with echo every 4 days.

Have fun!
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Fri Aug 24, 2018 2:10 pm

Your dog is young. I wouldn't wait to balance food. I would go for it and get the organs in. They amount to very little of the diet and with you feeding the lighter meats without the fatty skin I wouldn't expect much issue.

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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:58 pm

@Husky911 Yes we are definitely thinking of rotating between Chicken, Beef, and Lamb (possibly even fish or pork depending). Where i'm located, it is somewhat hard to find co ops or farmers with offal and organs, but i've found some decent sites online?

@TwisterII Yes we're going to introduce the liver + gizzards in a couple of days, i was just afraid of overloading him as he's very sensitive.

A question for the 2 of you, how often does your pup(s) defecate? I'm worried he may be constipated as we haven't seen much poop since he's been on the raw diet (3 days). He's never really had solid poops in his life, so i'm afraid the bone in his diet maybe making his poop too solid and may be too hard for him to pass? We have pumpkin on hand for this, I just don't want to be making a big deal out of nothing. He's only getting his required amount of bone (nothing extra just a chicken drumstick). So it isn't like he's getting too much bone? We also have been giving boneless thigh to account for some of the muscle meat (since the new diet needed to be bland and easy for the first week).

I'm just very hesitant because the last thing i want to do is mess up and have him end up at the vet's again No


Last edited by mellosmandu on Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:59 pm; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : miscounted days)
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Tue Aug 28, 2018 10:31 am

Gizzard and heart are considered muscle meat so don't count them as organ meat when doing your ratios.

The usable content in raw is much higher than in kibble. Smaller poops and less often are very common. If what is coming out is dry and crumbly then dial back on calcium content. Poops that come out should be normal expected consistency, just less often and less of it.

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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:37 pm

@TwisterII yeah we're going to use some chicken gizzard and beef heart to add in some variety of muscle meats, for the secreting organs it'll probably be chicken liver and/or beef kidney (depending on how often we can acquire it).

His poop looks normal it's just he seems to be skipping every other day and when we do see him defecate it's like 2-3 chunks around the size of a quarter to dollar coin? I'm just worried he's backed up. Based on his percentages, with bone it comes out to 0.265 lbs of bone and he almost always hits that or is still in the 0.20's.
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:44 pm

Ahhh the wonders of raw fed dog poops! I actually get excited to pick them up because with echo's diarrhea issues when he was younger, I used to have to double bag and the amount of times the bags tore and i got poop on me was endless!!! No

DO expect the poops to be significantly smaller, drier, and less stinky. As twisterll mentioned, if you find the poops are crumbling or looking pasty, feed less bone, and maybe add more vegetables, or organs, tripe, etc...As a point of reference Echo has always had a very active GI system (hence the diarrhea), but some days he'll poop 4 times a day (Small amounts) or sometimes he'll only poop once. It's weird. But it always comes out solid and, yes sometimes rock solid, but I don't mind it either, as it will help express his anal sacs =D.

Also expect your dog to drink significantly less water. Sometimes it even helps to just pour water and mix it with the raw. As you mentioned, pumpkin or a probiotic will help with the transition and detox that your dog will be experiencing. Remember your dog's GI is used to working overtime and create a lot more stomach acid to break down and digest that kibble. As opposed to raw dog food that kind of flows a lot more smoothly through.

Cheers!
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:51 pm

@Husky911 I can definitely relate, it was a pain to try to clean up his puddles because sometimes it was just pure liquid Sad Before raw he was typically going out about maybe 2x a day to defecate pretty regularly, so it was kind of nerve wracking not seeing him poop at all.

We have him on a new digestive aid, Perfect Form by The Honest Kitchen (as it contains slippery elm and some pumpkin in it) and we have been using a tablespoon of pure pumpkin as need be. Hopefully the introduction of organs right now may help him poop a little more.
I'm a total worry wart, so anything new like this i'm totally frazzled LOL Embarassed Luckily our pup Mello LOVES water, before we used to worry about how much he drank. One of his favorite things is just laying down with his head in his water bowl and blowing bubbles LOL

Thank you so much for the advice and help! I love you
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PostSubject: Re: New to Raw Feeding with "puppy" with med issues.   Tue Aug 28, 2018 2:51 pm

@mellosmandu wrote:
@TwisterII yeah we're going to use some chicken gizzard and beef heart to add in some variety of muscle meats, for the secreting organs it'll probably be chicken liver and/or beef kidney (depending on how often we can acquire it).

His poop looks normal it's just he seems to be skipping every other day and when we do see him defecate it's like 2-3 chunks around the size of a quarter to dollar coin? I'm just worried he's backed up. Based on his percentages, with bone it comes out to 0.265 lbs of bone and he almost always hits that or is still in the 0.20's.

Huh...seems a bit small for every other day poops =P. I would definitely cut down on bone and maybe start introducing some pumpkin or probiotic or tripe to get him moving a bit. Echo's poops are definitely typically on the drier side so I don't feed more than 10% bone content otherwise it gets really crumbly.
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