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 Thinking about breeding?

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Mishka'sMom
Teenager
Teenager
Mishka'sMom

Join date : 2012-11-24

Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 Empty
PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyWed May 01, 2013 8:58 am

n terms of good breeders out there, I think there are a lot of great breeders in the US. I think that the reason that they are hard to find is simply that with current technology, most people use the internet as their primary search tool. From my search a few months ago, I learned that a lot of breeders don't have websites, or if they do, they are minimal and don't have much information. My breeder has a website, but it hasn't been updated in some time, and her computer skills aren't very good. Every email she sent me was short and in all caps, because she didn't realize her caps lock was on. I think the best way to find a breeder is through word of mouth and recommendations. Attend a show, reference the SHCA list and call the breeders. Obviously you found a breeder you like and trust so this isn't necessarily to advise you in any way, but just my experience in my search. I think its hard for everyone to find a breeder, I mean this puppy is going to be part of your life for (hopefully) 10+ years. Obviously you know that and put a lot of thought into your choice, as did I.

WELL SAID!!!!!!!!!!!
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Wy Renegade
Puppy
Puppy
Wy Renegade

Join date : 2013-03-04
Location : Wyoming

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyWed May 01, 2013 10:59 am

Personally, I think that totally depends on how you define a business. Every single registered kennel/breeder that is out there, be it puppy mill or be it a reputable breeder or be it a ethical breeder is a business. They most likely have a business licease, they pay taxes as a business, and they get tax deductions for business expenses, and don't kid yourself, there are a number of reputable breeders out there that actually make money on their business. If they didn't, they wouldn't own or keep the number of dogs that they do. Granted much of that money may be reinvested back into the next great dog or improving housing or whatever it may be, but they do make money. There are in fact, at least a few of members here on this forum that are in the business of raising/breeding Siberians.

I find it rather interesting that in a single conversation, we have gone from puppy mill to reputable breeder to ethical breeder. I think it might be interesting to have a conversation on here about exactly what constitutes a breeder. I know "reputable" breeders who have seven or eight litters of puppies at a time. Is that truly a reputable breeder? What about the individual who only has a couple of dogs, but has done all of their research, shows their dogs, and produces a litter. Are they a reputable breeder or a backyard breeder?

I'm not trying to pick on any one in particular, I just find some of the positions of individuals on this forum rather interesting and think that maybe some of them deserve a little deeper look. I do agree that Jennifer's initial post was a little vague and left her open to a lot of questions, but the overt hostility toward someone expressing a future dream, vs. asking probing questions before jumping to conclusions can leave a bit of a sour taste in someone's mouth.
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wpskier222
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wpskier222

Female Join date : 2013-02-11
Location : NYC

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyWed May 01, 2013 11:35 am

That's true, this is kind of morphing into more of a philosophical discussion vs. an individual one. Should we start a new topic, so nobody feels like its directed at them?
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cinnamonbits
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cinnamonbits

Female Join date : 2012-11-03
Location : San Antonio, TX

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyWed May 01, 2013 11:40 am

http://www.itsahuskything.com/t1042-how-to-find-a-reputable-breeder This sticky here actually explains what to look for when looking for a "reputable" breeder. I think what a lot of people are getting at is that being a reputable/ethical breeder means showing the dogs or working them (which is what huskies are for, they're a working breed) and that those are the dogs that should be bred, not the pets. So your example of the individual with only a couple dogs, well they show those dogs, those are the type of dogs to be bred. A dog that hasn't been shown and hasn't had health checks (not normal ones, the certs I'm talking about) is not a dog to be bred and that's where we run into problems, because people DO breed those dogs. And the breeder could be great, could have a great setup and lovely dogs, but years later there are a butt ton of pups with health issues because this breeder didn't do everything properly. And there are already so many dogs out there that are sick and need good homes, and people don't usually want to take on a dog with hip or eye issues. Usually, when someone is breeding, the money they get from the pups is used to go back into their dogs, to pay for the vet trips and extra food and all the testing. So they generally break even. I have a friend who shows and breeds Danes and she definitely doesn't make much doing it. She only has one litter a year and that money goes back into her dogs, she still has a full time job.

Everyone here is just wanting to make sure that we all understand what can happen to our dogs when we breed them. There is no guarantee its going to go smoothly. And just because a dog has champions in its bloodlines, doesn't make it a champion dog itself. That's what showing is for. It let's you measure up your dog. No one is attacking, I think everyone just wants to make sure that this is all in the dog's best interest.
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Wy Renegade
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Wy Renegade

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Location : Wyoming

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyWed May 01, 2013 11:54 am

@wpskier222 wrote:
That's true, this is kind of morphing into more of a philosophical discussion vs. an individual one. Should we start a new topic, so nobody feels like its directed at them?

That might indeed be a good way to go.

@cinnamonbits wrote:
http://www.itsahuskything.com/t1042-how-to-find-a-reputable-breeder This sticky here actually explains what to look for when looking for a "reputable" breeder. I think what a lot of people are getting at is that being a reputable/ethical breeder means showing the dogs or working them (which is what huskies are for, they're a working breed) and that those are the dogs that should be bred, not the pets. So your example of the individual with only a couple dogs, well they show those dogs, those are the type of dogs to be bred. A dog that hasn't been shown and hasn't had health checks (not normal ones, the certs I'm talking about) is not a dog to be bred and that's where we run into problems, because people DO breed those dogs. And the breeder could be great, could have a great setup and lovely dogs, but years later there are a butt ton of pups with health issues because this breeder didn't do everything properly. And there are already so many dogs out there that are sick and need good homes, and people don't usually want to take on a dog with hip or eye issues. Usually, when someone is breeding, the money they get from the pups is used to go back into their dogs, to pay for the vet trips and extra food and all the testing. So they generally break even. I have a friend who shows and breeds Danes and she definitely doesn't make much doing it. She only has one litter a year and that money goes back into her dogs, she still has a full time job.

Everyone here is just wanting to make sure that we all understand what can happen to our dogs when we breed them. There is no guarantee its going to go smoothly. And just because a dog has champions in its bloodlines, doesn't make it a champion dog itself. That's what showing is for. It let's you measure up your dog. No one is attacking, I think everyone just wants to make sure that this is all in the dog's best interest.

Indeed, I have read the sticky and for the most part I agree with it. I also understand were everyone in the thread is coming from, including Jennifer. I just think that it would be a worthwhile philosophical discussion for the forum and forum members to have. The simple fact of the matter is that every breeder today (of any breed) got their break somewhere by someone allowing them to purchase a dog for breeding purposes, whether that be for the purpose of showing or the purpose of working. Very few breeders were born into it Wink. Those who mush professionally have a very different opinion of what it means to perform a cross for the sake of bettering the breed than do those who breed for show. The simple statement "producing puppies to better the breed" is entirely subjective. Mushers often refer to the show line as "Disney Dogs" and I'm sure that the other side has their pet phrase as well. When I first started getting into and researching Siberians over 20 years ago. White coats, piebalds and a few other colors you see today were unacceptable and dogs with those colors were questionable at best. Today they are accepted.
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jennmreeves
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jennmreeves

Female Join date : 2013-04-01
Location : Springfield MO

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyThu May 02, 2013 6:24 am

What I was trying to say in my original post was a desire to breed. I do want to breed there is not one person that I have met that had a dog that they love very much that did not want to breed. My mother that had the first family dog (who was in my eyes the greatest dog in the world) wanted to breed him. He was a purebred shar-pei and a very devoted dog that stuck by her till the day that she died. She talked alot about how she wanted to start a kennel all of the time. Like me she was very picky about who she would allow to breed with her dog. And to be honest she found a female that in her eyes was worthy enough to breed with her dog. She wanted to breed and start a kennel but it never happened because her standards were too high and she would not settle for just some dog that was AKC registered because all that means is that the dog was bred with another dog of the same breed. To be honest I read the first paragraph in wikipedia and put it down because there was a couple of things that it said that did not go along with my books that I have purchased on the breed.

I am not saying that I know it all. I would not even pay for a stud service if I was not 100 % sure that I am ready to take it on and can find 5 ways to overcome common problems. I would not start anything if I did not assist in at least 12 births. I would not start anything if I have not (I guess you would call it) apprentice another breeder for 2 years to understand the ins and outs of it alot more than I do. I am not going in blind if I even feel in a couple more years that I still want to do it. And that is even considering that Meeka is even fit to breed or that I even find a male I feel would be worthy of breeding with her. There are so many factors that play into the whole breeding thing. And even if in a few years I feel that I have enough knowledge, plenty of experience, and get the green light by her vet I would only have one litter done so I know that I am able to have good homes for them. If all goes well and it is something that I think I can handle then maybe try it again.

It is my opinion that I should never get in over my head. I should not walk in blind. I should not risk the health of my dog or any possible puppies. I should take on a puppy whose owner decides that they can no longer handle them and possibly find them another approved home. I should have enough money to cover any vet bills that could arise that I did not count on. I should be run every possible thing that could happen in my head and think of ways to prevent it or resources to help. I should have back up plans A-Z.

With that said yes it is a want. I do want to breed. However I will never knowingly put a life in danger... Heck I don't even kill flies, spiders, snakes, ect... I do not believe in causing harm to any life unless it is for survival purposes. I am not some person that never gets their pets "fixed" and have them breeding anything one four legs. I have a cat that is "fixed" as well as a rescue mutt that this month is of age to get fixed and has an appointment at the vet to get fixed. I do not believe in breeding without a purpose. The all mighty dollar will never affect my morals and ethical standings. In order to be a breeder I do have to have a business license so in reality it would be a business. It may not make enough money that I could put it in my pocket without having to put it back into my dog. I am prepared that it not make any money that would not go back to my dog and possible pups. If I made 10 dollars I would be happy. If I did not do it at all I would still be happy to have Meeka in my life.
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Hayden_69
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Hayden_69

Female Join date : 2011-12-26
Location : Alexandria, VA

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyThu May 02, 2013 10:21 am

To me it sounds like you are trying to get everyone's seal of approval to breed, which obviously isn't happening. You're going to do what you're going to do at the end of the day. Everyone has given you plenty of information and advice and if you choose not to follow it, then that's clearly on you.

You say you're so picky, then instead of justifying you're breeding on a forum, why don't you get a mentor from a reputable breeder and start looking into possibly showing you're dog or proving her in some way, if you haven't done so already? There is nothing wrong with becoming a reputable breeder, but how you're coming across is just like every other BYB. If you're truly in it to better the breed, then do right by the breed and prove that you're dog has what it takes to better the breed.

Good luck!

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mbarnard0429
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mbarnard0429

Female Join date : 2011-08-07
Location : Michigan

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyThu May 02, 2013 3:10 pm

I still want to know where your puppy is from; I have a feeling our definition of "reputable" is very different.


BTW, You have now met many people who LOVE their BEAUTIFUL & WONDERFUL pets, but neutered their animals because they love the breed enough to know breeding them isn't the best option.
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Mishka'sMom
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Teenager
Mishka'sMom

Join date : 2012-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyThu May 02, 2013 7:22 pm

I hear what you are saying and still wonder the WHY you wish to breed?? I still don't hear you speaking in any terms of proving you bitch or working her in any way. Just saying "I want to breed" without backing it up with any tangible reason doesnt cut it and I think that, paired with your not willing to expose the kennel name is putting people off--like you are hiding something.
By saying you want to breed, regardless if shadowing or gaining experiences is putting the cart before the horse. Most serious hobbists in the world of dogs start out showing, proving themselves and their dogs in some fashion. THEN after what could be years of careful consideration so they make the leap to produce their new generation for themselves and their goals. I dont see that or anything like that here.
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Mishka'sMom
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Mishka'sMom

Join date : 2012-11-24

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyThu May 02, 2013 7:46 pm

Sorry for the type-o....should read "your bitch". Business license being necessary aside, it still sounds like you are breeding just for the sake of breeding and I just don't get that. Sorry, just my very humble opinion. Yeah, someday I truly hope I have built myself and my dogs up to the point where I could produce a home-bred champion for myself and to better this breed I love in some way. To me, I am entering the world of dogs for a serious (and I do mean serious to me and alot of people) hobby, and sport, for me and my dogs. I hope I am choosing my words correctly here.

I sincerely hope I am not coming off as a snob or a know-it-all. I am neither, and in fact a total newbie to the dog world and the world of dog showing. These are just my humble (VERY) opinions, and frankly, didn't you ask for them to be given? But, I agree with Kelly, you sound like every other BYB. On the other hand, everyone who is in this started somewhere, and I believe your heart is in the right place....just don't think you are going about it in the "right" way nor in the right order of things. At least you are looking into health testing, that's something. Just curious....just how many times (after the first one, if you like it or can handle it, as you said), do you think you can do with your one bitch?? So, you will end up with several dogs all breeding to build up your kennel business? To break even? It cannot be good for a dog to continually breed until she is worn out, nor every heat cycle. Like I said, I just dont get it. Give us a reason.....or not. We are just people you don't really know on the internet!
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Mobezilla
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Mobezilla

Female Join date : 2012-08-29
Location : Ohio

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyThu May 02, 2013 9:02 pm

Your reasoning to me reads very much like "My dog has lovely temperament. I want everyone to have my dog." But then you've even said in one of your posts "My dog doesn't have the best temperament." You keep turning your argument around with each reply to try to please everyone.. but unless you release who the breeder is and it turns out to be a reputable breeder, no one is going to take you for anything more than a backyard breeder. The fact is whether they do it for the love of the breed, or for money, a backyard breeder is all the same. They don't health test their dogs or show them to ensure they're fit to meet the brand standards. And honestly, just from the profile pic, she doesn't look like she's from any recognizable kennels that I know of. She's still a great pet, I'm sure she'll make a lovely companion, but if you're set on breeding her I strongly encourage you to at least enter her in some shows. The judges feedback should be more than enough to tell you if shes fit for breeding.
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nahani1967
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:33 am

I have a question for everyone.
I did not get my husky from a "reputable" breeder. We first tried to adopt one from a shelter since husky is the only choice (I had two before, both were from "reputable" breeders). Back to my third one, couldn't get one from a shelter with explanation that he would not get along with our two cats. Right. Talking about numerous dogs getting killed. So, we went to get a puppy, from a... what do you call it? BYB, don't even know what that means.
It's cheaper. Don't really need no papers - for what? I am not going to show her off, I just wanted a husky to give my love to. If she gets sick, well... who is to say that a husky with all the papers in the world won't get sick?? I am responsible dog owner, she is our family member and she gets everything she needs, and more. I don't really need to know five generations of her ancestors - do you all know five generations of your own ancestors? Yeah there are so many homeless huskies but did the papers really prevent them from lending in a shelter?
When someone tells me I need to buy from a "reputable" breeder it's almost like telling me that my husky is not worth living... Didn't Hitler do the same with people? Some higher race... right. My husky is everything to me. She looks and acts like one, so she is one. Who is to tell me that I cannot have here have puppies? It's like telling me I can't have kids because I am not a top model or my father is not Sire of Hampshire. There area so many homeless people, too, there area so many homeless teenagers and yet people still have babies because it's their right to experience the joy of parenting. If I love my dog half as much as I say I do, who am I to take the same rights away from her? Is it really human to fix her once and forever and deprive her of her God-given nature? Yeah maybe there area people who think of dollar signs first buy what do you think think all those people and organizations and clubs who created "reputable" breeders and pretty soon you will even have to teach your dog cook and read books because that is sooooo human! But how snoby it is in reality...
Thank you all.
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HuskyMom09
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HuskyMom09

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:38 am

When you support a breeder that's doing it 'cheaper' you are also telling them its OK to breed their dogs that have seizure disorders and not tell their puppy buyers, their dogs that have bad temperaments, their dogs with ZRD, CHD, CD, JC, etc. So you're 'cheaper' puppy may cost you a ton more in vet visits, have a compromised life expectancy, not be able to live a day without pain. So call it 'snobby' or 'nazi-esk' however you like but in reality those of us that do push reputable breeders over the rest are keeping the health, quality, and functionality of the breed we love in mind over just creating life because someone can.
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mbarnard0429
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mbarnard0429

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:46 am

Please don't insinuate that people invested in ethical breeding are part of Hitler's genetic experiments - that always goes down the wrong path. Every time.

I'm not going to bother trying to change your mind, because I can see it's not going to happen. Have a great night.
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Sheba&Kennedy
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Sheba&Kennedy

Female Join date : 2012-08-13
Location : Nebraska

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:48 am

@nahani1967 wrote:
I have a question for everyone.
I did not get my husky from a "reputable" breeder. We first tried to adopt one from a shelter since husky is the only choice (I had two before, both were from "reputable" breeders). Back to my third one, the shelter wouldn't give me one with explanation that he would not get along with our two cats. Right. Talking about numerous dogs getting killed. So, we went to get a puppy, from a... what do you call it? BYB, don't even know what that means.
It's cheaper. Don't really need no papers - for what? I am not going to show her off, I just wanted a husky to give my love to. If she gets sick, well... who is to say that a husky with all the papers in the world won't get sick?? I am responsible dog owner, she is our family member and she gets everything she needs, and more.  I don't really need to know five generations of her ancestors - do you all know five generations of your own ancestors? Yeah there are so many homeless huskies but did the papers really prevent them from lending in a shelter?
When someone tells me I need to buy from a "reputable" breeder it's almost like telling me that my husky is not worth living... Didn't Hitler do the same with people? Some higher race... right. My husky is everything to me. She looks and acts like one, so she is one. Who is to tell me that I cannot have here have puppies? It's like telling me I can't have kids because I am not a top model or my father is not Sire of Hampshire. There are so many homeless people, too, there are so many homeless teenagers and yet people still have babies because it's their right to experience the joy of parenting.  If I love my dog half as much as I say I do, who am I to take the same rights away from her? Is it really human to fix her once and forever and deprive her of her God-given nature? Yeah maybe there are people who think of dollar signs first buy what do you think think all those people and organizations and clubs who created "reputable" breeders and pretty soon you will even have to teach your dog cook and read books because that is sooooo human! But how snoby it is in reality...
Thank you all.

At first I was going to nit pick this post apart and tell you everything that was absolutely WRONG with this, but instead of wasting my time, this is what I have to say.

If you come on here just to get everybody riled up and to get a reaction out of us, your stay will not be long lived. This post deserves no attention from any of us. Seriously. I hope nobody responds to this post, especially since this is the second time it has been posted. Just sayin'.
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nahani1967
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:52 am

Sorry for double posting.
Well yeah I am telling them it is ok to breed cheaper because everyone in thus world should be able to aford a dog of their choice. My first husky was from a reputable breeder and with all papers and guess what - had hip problems big time. My second husky's parents even were in a movie - guess what, we ended up paying hundreds of dollars for her brain surgery, she had a tumor. My third husky has no pedigree and is healthy ad a horse.
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HuskyMom09
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:54 am

Then I'd argue that the breeder you call reputable would not truly be reputable at all-  Waste of time arguing...your mind will not budge and neither the rest of ours. I have rescued non-pedigree horribly bred Siberians with unspeakable issues, puppy mill dogs with hip and elbow issues, temperament issues, etc. Yet the dogs I have from breeders that actually health test and research the lineages before breeding are perfectly healthy and more than capable of doing their jobs as well.
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mbarnard0429
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mbarnard0429

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:56 am

LOL - Only ONE relatively decent kennel supplied dogs to any Siberian oriented movie - believe me, unless it was that one sing kennel (highly unlikely) that breeder was a miller.
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nahani1967
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:57 am

I have rights today say what I think. If my stay will be short lived, so be it. It really is hard to write using a phone, that s why double post. If you guys don't agree with me that is just right with me. I am here to say my opinion just as everyone else.
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Sheba&Kennedy
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Sheba&Kennedy

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 1:58 am

Nobody said you don't have a right to your opinion; don't get it twisted. You are comparing us to Hilter. That's just not cool. Have some decency.
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mbarnard0429
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mbarnard0429

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 2:00 am

I'm fine with opinions - as long as they aren't made to be factual evidence.

If you could be so kind, would you supply the kennel names of the dogs you had before your proclaimed BYB dog?
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nahani1967
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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 2:04 am

Not compering YOU to Hitler... The rules. When I say I had dogs from reputable breeders... why is everyone questening? Did you see the papers and you so know I am in the wrong? Nevertheless I love huskies and always will. Good night.
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Sheba&Kennedy
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Sheba&Kennedy

Female Join date : 2012-08-13
Location : Nebraska

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 2:06 am

@nahani1967 wrote:
Not compering YOU to Hitler... The rules. When I say I had dogs from reputable breeders... why is everyone questening? Did you see the papers and you so know I am in the wrong? Nevertheless I love huskies and always will. Good night.

LOL. You come on here and start drama, and instead of answering reasonable questions to decide if you did in fact get your "plagued" huskies from reputable kennels, you just run away. How lovely.
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mbarnard0429
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mbarnard0429

Female Join date : 2011-08-07
Location : Michigan

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 2:08 am

Papers do not equal reputable. Sometimes, it can mean the exact opposite.
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HuskyMom09
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Female Join date : 2012-11-01
Location : Spokane WA

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PostSubject: Re: Thinking about breeding?   Thinking about breeding? - Page 2 EmptyFri Jun 28, 2013 2:09 am

Well since we are sharing opinions, I am of the opinion that not every home is suitable for a Siberian...evidence to that is found in shelters after the puppy that was cute and cuddly has grown up and proven to be too much for the purchaser to handle so they dump them in shelters, list them on freebee sites, sell them to another family. Thanks to BYB's and irresponsible breeders that don't properly screen the pet homes, don't bother to microchip, and don't have any contractual obligations to get the dog back if it doesn't work out.

I also don't believe in breeding without a thorough knowledge of the breed history and standard, proving your dogs in some form (working and/or showing), and obtained the proper health clearances to ensure you aren't passing on hereditary disorders.
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