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 aggression in my puppy!

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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:18 am

This thread isn't even about you. Your suggestions were countered with other suggestions that differ in nature. End of story. People don't agree with you, it's okay.
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histi
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:19 am

And would you please care to share what else I have shared today that is apparently dominance training?

because as far as I am aware, this ONE tactic is all?

And if what I am doing is morally wrong in your eyes, can you at least tell me how it is?

I really thought I would be given help and access to information here - not told to go off and study.. it is an advice forum I thought..
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:23 am

Actually I care not to, because this is neither about you nor your morality.
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Niraya
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:28 am

Why are you so defensive? No one has attacked you or damned your training or called you the most horrible person alive. All extremes you took upon yourself to lay claim to.

I can find you a link to a study if you would like that says dogs don't follow the hierarchy that was thought of based on the study of captive wolves back in the....70s? I think it was. Dogs are social...but they are not wolves.

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Niraya
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:32 am

http://www.nonlineardogs.com/socialorganisation.html

disproving dogs do not live in a dominance hierarchy

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cinnamonbits
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 1:59 am

Quote :
And if what I am doing is morally wrong in your eyes, can you at least tell me how it is?
These are your words not their's. No one here has said this about you. We just don't advocate dominance training around here, simple as that. Its better to use positive reinforcement when training than dominance.

As to the OP, take a step back and reevaluate what you're doing. You say you don't want her to do this when the kids pet her, but think about it like this: if you continue to do the things she doesn't like when she growls, she'll stop growling all together and just bite. That is an unwanted action. Growling is a warning, its a GOOD thing, you want her to growl. When she growls, back off, she obviously isn't happy with what you are doing. Give her a couple minutes to calm down and try something else. I've never had a need to fluff either of my dogs, you can pet a dog without fluffing it.
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histi
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:05 am

Niraya, You didnt personally, but no, I was actually shocked and horrified to learn what the trainer had suggested was dominance, as I have heard of it before.. I actually use clicker trainers normally with my dogs - But it was very obvious you were detesting what I had said, as at that point I was the only one who had attempted to answer the OP's question.

Anyway my view point is it is NOT misinformation, the method has worked, so therefore it is just a method that is frowned upon.

You guys that have been around here for longer should probably take the time to explain the in's and out's with your newbies. I've only been here 2 days and have thus learnt you can't freely say what you like without ridicule (Maybe not directly but deffinately aimed.) So anyway thank you for the link, I will be reading it Smile

Enjoy your forum.
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Niraya
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:11 am

You just said you have been here two days...and you are making broad, over generalized statements about the entirety of the forum and you've only been here 48 hours.

all because I pointed out that the technique you used was part of the dominance theory and that there are better, more effective methods that could be used?

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histi
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:15 am

no, you said - and others said it was misinformation. It is fact that I tried it and it worked. But apparently it is a pack of lies as far as you are concerned. And yup 2 days of it and I'm out, only a fool would stick around. TTFN
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:20 am

I said the -theory- was a pack of lies.  I never once aaid that it didn't work for you or it hasn't worked for others.

And just because...the "pack of lies" comment....it was a joke. The dominance theory based on wolves...live in a pack...hence the pack of lies...

?..not nearly as funny when I have to explain it....

I am not going to try to convince you to stay.  Either way I do not care.  All I've seen is someone who takes disagreements to heart and extremes during a civil discussion.

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Last edited by Niraya on Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:31 am; edited 1 time in total
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cinnamonbits
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 2:20 am

The whole point of being part of a forum is learning...learning from others. You've only been here for two days so you really haven't read through anything have you? Like to see what we advocate and what we don't? Its OK to voice you're opinion, just realize that there are others that may disagree with you. We don't all agree on everything, that's part of being part of a community. But, this is completely off-topic and not helping the OP at all. What works for one person wont always work for another because every dog, like every person is different. My husky is so submissive that alpha rolling her (which is what you described) would not have worked, it would have terrified the crap out of her. I want her to respect me, not fear me, and positive reinforcement worked for us.

OP, have you ever heard of NILIF training?
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hrangelotti
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 8:23 am

@seattlesibe wrote:
It is extremely rare, especially in such young puppies.  They respond to stimulus at this age, that's it.  They need to be set up for success and put in situations where positive responses far outweigh negative responses, as this will get them to trust you and respect you.

She's only just begun her life with you and she doesn't trust you yet or respect you yet because she is too young and developing a dynamic with you.  

If you keep provoking things in her that cause her to react, not act, with aggression or tension, then you are teaching her that you are a source of hostility and tension.  She is going to associate you with stress and a need to be defensive.  

She's too young to play rough and she obviously can not handle the way you are interacting with her.  Her aggression, as it were, is the effect, not the cause.  She is a young Husky and they are naturally and normally mouthy and they use their teeth to interact with the world. She will do this enough on her own without your provocation.  

It sounds like you need to adjust your expectations to a more age-appropriate level for her.  And this advice is true for all of us that have had puppies.  Puppy owners can all benefit from respecting the nature of our puppies and their ways and taking responsibility for the responses we provoke in them.  She sounds stressed and tense and you can change that by teaching her to associate you with relaxation and calmness and positive energy.  

She's still a baby and she's not trying to take over your household and run the show.  She's trying to tell you something about how you are interacting with her.   It's up to you to change.

i appreciate the advice. what i really wanted to know was why she was reacting that way. now that i realize that it is not aggression but a reaction i will not do what i was doing anymore. i don't want her to grow up thinking i'm a negative thing to be around. i haven't had a puppy in a while. my other dog is a lot older so it's hard for me to understand the nature of puppies. thanks lots
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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 11:04 am

Are you sure this puppy is not experiencing any pain? What do you mean by "fluffing up?"

I don't think this is dominance, or aggression. And those things do not go hand in hand. On another note- do not alpha roll your dog. Or submissive hold. Or any "hold" to "show" your dog you're in charge. You WILL do more harm than good in the long run.

There is a link in my signature to the training thread I have which has a large amount of articles and links to blogs by respected forcefree trainers.

I would start with small little 1-2 minute sessions based around her issue currently. If it's petting that bothers the dog, please make sure that the dog doesn't have some sort of health problem, internal cyst, or anything else that could be causing pain. You can take a nice glob of peanut butter on a spoon and let her go to town while you gently and not with any force touch the areas on the dog. If she backs away that's fine. You need to stop before there is any real sign of discomfort or growling. You need the puppy UNDER threshold. We're associating good things like PB with just gentle touching. Work up over WEEKS to be able to touch the whole body. DO NOT PUSH THINGS FAST. That will explode in your face.

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xredrainx
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:29 pm



I'm sorry I had to do it XD
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blueeyedghost
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 12:40 pm

lol! 

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hrangelotti
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:10 pm

nope she's not in any pain her vet visit last week went great. she's happy and healthy and loves to chew her antlers lol. what i mean by fluffing her fur is that i'm trying to get her to play. she will play sometimes when i do that. i'll com up to her and start petting her and playfully fluffing up her fur with my fingers. she just didn't like it last night i guess and snapped at me. i guess i won't be getting her to play anymore like that since she doesnt like it. i'll find another way to initiate playing with her
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Eresh
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 3:58 pm

I've been reading this thread and thinking about it all morning.
Many huskies play HARD with hackles up, teeth bared, growls, bites, etc. (and often broken skin and injuries). To someone not used to it, it really does seem aggressive (probably why the breed is on that awful top ten list, but I digress..) It took me *forever* to really understand that's pretty normal for huskies, and I'm still not used to it. My point being, that maybe it's not aggression in the way you think it is, but typical husky play.
With that said, I agree with you that you should find a different way to initiate play with her, since that will eliminate any mixed signals she may be getting. I had similar issues with Luci, because dh (used to huskies) would play rough with her, but then she would try it with me or the kids and I was like 'oh, hell no'. She's gotten much better since he started other types of play with her, such as fetch.
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hrangelotti
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:07 pm

@Eresh wrote:
I've been reading this thread and thinking about it all morning.
Many huskies play HARD with hackles up, teeth bared, growls, bites, etc. (and often broken skin and injuries).  To someone not used to it, it really does seem aggressive (probably why the breed is on that awful top ten list, but I digress..)  It took me *forever* to really understand that's pretty normal for huskies, and I'm still not used to it.  My point being, that maybe it's not aggression in the way you think it is, but typical husky play.
With that said, I agree with you that you should find a different way to initiate play with her, since that will eliminate any mixed signals she may be getting. I had similar issues with Luci, because dh (used to huskies) would play rough with her, but then she would try it with me or the kids and I was like 'oh, hell no'. She's gotten much better since he started other types of play with her, such as fetch.  
thank you i absolutely started playing today with her without ruffling her fur. she did well. wagged her tail play bowed. very vocal as a husky should be. and i think after weeks of teaching bite inhibition i think she is starting to get it now. she was a lot more gentle today while playing. i guess last night was just a really annoyed tired puppy or something lol. she did it a few weeks before as well. i just won't fluff her up anymore
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:14 pm

That's probably a good idea. I had to sort of shutdown play with my pup for a while, for the same reason. He would just get too riled up and bite. I looked like I owned a really psychotic cat for a few weeks there. I started sending him to daycare after his final round of shots and that made a huge difference in his biting with me. I think the other dogs just taught him it wasn't okay. Also, calming training and timeouts were really effective for me. The more excited he would get, the more he would bite, and the more he bit the more frustrated I would get, and the more annoyed I got, the more he would get wound up. Break the cycle, don't start the thing that you know gets her into that wild state, OR if she gets there during play, give her a timeout and isolate her. Most people don't recommend using the crate, but I did for Dizzy, I didn't really have any other choice in our apartment. I'd crate him and wait until he calmed down.

Also, for what its worth, even if you subscribe to a factually disproven theory, alpha rolling a puppy for bad behavior still doesn't fit within that. Adult wolves let puppies get away with everything and are extremely tolerant. Watch how an adult dog corrects a puppy sometime. It's quick, loud (growl), but no teeth are used, and then the adult ignores the puppy after the correction, a well socialized adult dog would never pin a puppy on its back 4 times in a row. If it did, that dog would become well acquainted with my boot as would any human that attempted that with my young puppy. Your puppy weighs, what, 15 lbs? Why on earth would someone feel the need to 'dominate' an infant they have at least a 100 lb weight advantage over? My last point here is that if you believe this theory, then you must look at how puppies show dominance over each other. How do they do that? In play mostly, so getting angry/frustrated and correcting with an alpha roll doesn't speak their language. It just makes you appear scarey and unbalanced.

Puppies don't know what you want. They are learning. They are not saying, "Eff you" when they don't listen, they are just doing what puppies do and exploring and learning about the world. Samoa will outgrow a lot of these bad habits, so it requires patience and restraint on your part, combined with positive training methods. Even trainers that do use negative reinforcement (e collars, pinch collars etc) recommend waiting until a dog is at least 6 months before using them. Until a puppy is 6 months they can't cognitively handle many things. At this stage, you should be focused on the simple but extremely important step of relationship building. Trust me, you'll see your puppy start to outgrow this stuff and you'll feel so happy and proud the first time she stops biting when you ask her to or looks to you in a situation where she's unsure. You need to be her protector, her friend, her stand in parent. At this stage give her confidence and love. If you build this foundation, you'll be able to see when she reaches a developmental stage where you can ask more of her if you focus on your relationship with her.
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:25 pm

I completely understand time out lol I usually attach her to a leash attached to the door knob and she sits there sulking for a minute. Once she calms down I take her out and that's it. I'm sure she'll get what I want eventually. Thanks for the advice
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:33 pm

As far as metaphors go they are like little mirrors.  You set the pace, right?  

There is a training method called Calming Training that is really solid and will last you a lifetime if you do it right when she is this young.  

Even within the realm of Dominance Theory (which I do not wholesale disapprove of) and in particular Cesar Millan is a very good advocate of Calming Training.  I'm not assuming you like him but most people who think of alpha rolls and dominance based stuff get it from him these days.  But, that said, one aspect of his overall system that I have benefited from and is far less controversial than his other aspects is Calming Training.  

This is why he is such an advocate of not acknowledging a dog with excitement because what do you get in return? Excitement.  If you acknowledge a dog roughly, what do you get in return?  Rough housing.  But if you acknowledge a dog calmly and with a peaceful energy, what do you get in return?  Calmness.  

There's been an undercurrent in the host of advice posts in this thread that basically boil down to you setting the tone and pace of your interaction with your puppy.  

Imagine her at 50 pounds and a teenage brat when she's a year old.  The precedent you wanna set is calmness, and more specifically that you set the pace and tone of her behavior. I won't be perfect because they are naturally defiant and stubborn--that's their breed history--but you can make a world of difference by cutting back on your provocation, like Jen said right above.  

I didn't rough house with my puppy until he was about 7 months old and could more cognitively understand right from wrong and play-versatility.  His nickname is puppy kindergarten was "Too Bad" because he was like the little bully picking on the Goldens and the Poodles and the Labs.  Versatility in play style takes a long time to teach and is one of the most difficult life lessons you'll teach her.

But it can be done and you are primed to start now.  

I'm glad this thread turned around for the better and hope it helps you.  We really all just care about your puppy and wanna help.
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hrangelotti
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:51 pm

I completely understand the calm training method. When I get home from somewhere if she's not with me already lol she'll be so excited and its so hard to ignore that jumping excited state of mind but I don't want her to be big and doing that as a teenager so I calmly walk by and only give her Praise when she is calm. Its the best to be especially with young children. Lol she'll knock them over once she's older so I've been practicing the calm technique except in play and that was my mistake oops
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:54 pm

Firstly I would like to apologize to the OP.
I was not aware that dominance training was frowned upon here,
and also I didn't like the whole method in the first place - but as results were good, I thought I would share.

Niraya - Sorry for my behavior if you didnt mean it how it sounded - I suppose that is the great flaw in forums, there is no body language to go with it and things can be mis-interpreted, and I have obviously done that. Maybe I had PMT - maybe I'm just not used to others having very strong opinions.. anyway, I feel highly embarrassed.
I read part of that link you left but got very how-hum with the way it is written, and googled positive reinforcement training a lady called Victoria Stilwell.. what do you think about her?
She has great training videos on youtube and I like how a clicker isn't needed - these may be of help to the OP

Is there anyone here who can give me pointers as to what subjects can be touchy?
I don't want to be flying off the handle and pissing people off, and hi-jacking threads, or giving bad information.

So, I am sorry to everyone who had to experience my tantrum, and will try my best not to do it again..
I guess I have alot to learn.

( Sorry if it appears I am hi-jacking again, just thought it was best to apologize at the scene of the crime)
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 4:56 pm

Haha, well said Heather. I wish I would have documented all of my Oopses for a documentary.
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: aggression in my puppy!    Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:14 pm

@histi wrote:
Firstly I would like to apologize to the OP.
I was not aware that dominance training was frowned upon here,
and also I didn't like the whole method in the first place - but as results were good, I thought I would share.

Niraya - Sorry for my behavior if you didnt mean it how it sounded - I suppose that is the great flaw in forums, there is no body language to go with it and things can be mis-interpreted, and I have obviously done that. Maybe I had PMT - maybe I'm just not used to others having very strong opinions.. anyway, I feel highly embarrassed.
        I read part of that link you left but got very how-hum with the way it is written, and googled positive reinforcement training a lady called Victoria Stilwell.. what do you think about her?
She has great training videos on youtube and I like how a clicker isn't needed - these may be of help to the OP

Is there anyone here who can give me pointers as to what subjects can be touchy?
I don't want to be flying off the handle and pissing people off, and hi-jacking threads, or giving bad information.

So, I am sorry to everyone who had to experience my tantrum, and will try my best not to do it again..
I guess I have alot to learn.

( Sorry if it appears I am hi-jacking again, just thought it was best to apologize at the scene of the crime)

I don't think you need to worry about touchy subjects, just realize that when people disagree with you its a discussion, not an attack. Also please read all of the pages in the following threads:

http://www.itsahuskything.com/t5405-please-read-new-forum-policy

http://www.itsahuskything.com/t7746-hello-and-welcome-to-it-s-a-husky-thing

http://www.itsahuskything.com/t4488-what-are-treats


Also take a gander at the forum rules.
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