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 Husky Coat Colors

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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu May 10, 2018 1:53 pm

She looks wolf grey to me, a sable, I think would have a more pronounced red to them. Sometimes referred to as black nosed red.

http://www.huskycolors.com/sable.html

http://www.huskycolors.com/wolf.html
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu May 10, 2018 2:01 pm

Amy who is the dog in question? Miya is a wolf gray and the only way I knew it was for the reddish tint in the back of her ears and at her hocks has a splash of a reddish tint also, stupid me always thought she was dirty, haha. Her undercoat is more of a cream or tan vs white.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu May 10, 2018 2:47 pm

Renee - previous page, last dog, today's post, just before Al's response. Dog is Rayne, owner is LuciadeOchoa01
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SpWaMc91
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Wed Jul 04, 2018 5:01 pm

I am currently fostering a Siberian Husky for a friend, and as a hobby breeder (not of Siberian Huskies) doing some light reading into the specifics of the breed it quickly became clear that the designations of various colors for Siberian Huskies rarely align with the genetic reality.

A question I had, specifically, is if anybody knows of any recent publications which detail the alleged recessive gene(s) which result in the "white" Siberian Huskies?

I spent a couple hours going through Embark results for dogs which presented as solid white, and all of them were genetically red (all were "kk", non-black).

Seems entirely more likely that the white Siberian Huskies are just red dogs with extreme dilution, which is also what causes Samoyed's to be white and they come from almost identical origin points.
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TwisterII
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu Jul 05, 2018 11:12 am

My boy is all white. His E locus came back as Ee. His K locus came back as KyKy. His A locus came back as KwKw. The D locus is DD. and his B locus is Bb. By all rights he should be agouti. But he is very white. Some speculation is that some of the white in all white dogs is being determined by the S locus that Embark does not test for. Not a whole lot of actual scientific research out there on it right now.

http://www.doggenetics.co.uk/white.htm

https://www.animalgenetics.eu/Canine/Canine-color/Canine-color-s-locus.html

https://vcahospitals.com/know-your-pet/genetics-basics-coat-color-genetics-in-dogs

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SpWaMc91
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:37 pm

Would it be possible for you to post the Embark results page here? It would be an interesting thing to see, as it would be the first white Siberian Husky that I've seen there without being genetically red.

Do you think it's possible that your dog presents as white because his pattern of sable is specifically very red-heavy? The same way many animals are genetically Sable but who display as something akin to Ay Sable?
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu Jul 05, 2018 1:50 pm

I am not at all smart with genetics. I am replying for a few reasons, one there are plenty of huskies that are black points and would not be considered reds. Likewise there are plenty of white huskies that are indeed red points. Kye is an oddity to me, I would swear he is a red point, but didn't come back as such. At the top of the page Amy posted another site which I have found to be very useful I will repost here for you http://www.huskycolors.com/genetic.html
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TwisterII
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu Jul 05, 2018 2:13 pm

Try that link. Sometimes it works and sometimes I forget to check the right box.

https://my.embarkvet.com/dog/kye2

I'm not real sure. I'm not very strong in color genetics. I was more on top of it when I actually had him embarked over a year ago now. I researched and learned a lot but because I haven't needed the knowledge it kinda went poof into the ether. lol. I don't believe so. My theory with him because he is ALL white there's probably something going on more with the I locus in combination with the S locus. Both of which embark doesn't test for.

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SpWaMc91
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu Jul 05, 2018 3:14 pm

@MiyasMomma wrote:
I am not at all smart with genetics. I am replying for a few reasons, one there are plenty of huskies that are black points and would not be considered reds. Likewise there are plenty of white huskies that are indeed red points. Kye is an oddity to me, I would swear he is a red point, but didn't come back as such. At the top of the page Amy posted another site which I have found to be very useful I will repost here for you

The problem is the color standard for the Siberian Husky, it doesn't strictly align with genetic reality.

A good example being the dogs often referred to as "dark red", which isn't actually red at all -- it's liver, or brown.

To specifically address the red nose, there are only two common causes for it:

1) Snow Nose, which isn't actually caused by any specific genetic inheritance.

2) The dog is brown-base (i.e. genetically liver) and carrying the dilution gene. Neither the A-locus nor E-locus (which are Agouti/Sable and Recessive Red, respectively) affect the skin, eyerims, nose, or pad color.

I tentatively would suggest that all white dogs are genetically either KyKy/kk and Ay/aw, all with the Intensity (I-locus, postulated) modifier that lightens the presented red to white/cream.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu Jul 05, 2018 4:06 pm

Yea, you got me lost hahahahahahahahahaha. I would assume that black points have some type of fading going on and have genetic black, just not seen real well. And I do tend to use red point when indeed I should be saying liver point. I have noticed that husky coat colors are more spot on than say gsd's coat colors, since like my girl she is a sable, but in the rest of the dog world sable is considered agouti. LMAO........I find coat colors interesting and I do use the link I provided to look at dogs and their unique coloration, but I will admit, coat colors are far too complicated to me. I think a lot has to do with dilution, but again coat colors are not my strong suit, just find it interesting and hope some day I will understand it more. Smile
As far as Kye is concerned, he has liver points, so I would have assumed he was a liver/red, but he didn't come back as such thru dna. There is a member here with a white husky with black eye rim and nose, my only concession is that he is a faded black, because there is 0 red that appears with him. When you list kyky, etc, it pulls me out of the conversation, because I will not be able to respond. I know what I see, what I see is that not all white huskies are liver, and I believe that was what your point was originally, that all white huskies are liver points.
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SpWaMc91
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Thu Jul 05, 2018 5:10 pm

@MiyasMomma wrote:
I have noticed that husky coat colors are more spot on than say gsd's coat colors, since like my girl she is a sable, but in the rest of the dog world sable is considered agouti. LMAO........

@MiyasMomma wrote:
As far as Kye is concerned, he has liver points, so I would have assumed he was a liver/red, but he didn't come back as such thru dna. There is a member here with a white husky with black eye rim and nose, my only concession is that he is a faded black, because there is 0 red that appears with him. When you list kyky, etc, it pulls me out of the conversation, because I will not be able to respond. I know what I see, what I see is that not all white huskies are liver, and I believe that was what your point was originally, that all white huskies are liver points.

I'll have to take another look at Kye, because since I looked at that I've looked at another 6 or 7 Embark results and they're all jumbling together -- but, no, my postulation was that all white Siberian Huskies are just dogs who present as red (which would be either dogs who don't carry black, or who carry the most recessive form of black which allows the red genes to show) and who have been affected extremely by the I-series, which determines how red any given animal is.

This would explain how there could be completely white animals with black, brown, or dilute brown bases (eyerims, nose, pads, etc.). It seems far more likely that this would be the case, especially considering the Samoyed's genetic reality.

"Secret, unique, Siberian Husky-only gene mutation" just seems unlikely. Happy to be proven wrong, of course.
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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:52 pm

I know zero about genetics, but to produce a silver and white husky (which is  a sub category of grey and whites) it is my understanding a white parent is bred with a grey and white parent to achieve a silver and white husky. I've had several silver and white huskies and each time the mother was white and the father a grey and white...and the whites parents always had a red and white so red, I believe, is a factor in the white huskies. All my silver and white huskies, as puppies, were almost all white, with buffs of red and then the faint black markings.

Edit to add...all puppies in the litters were either silver and white or pure white and all my silver and whites had the black pigmentation (eye liner, nose, etc.)
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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:07 pm

Here is a pic of my last silver and white girl at 5 years old, you can see how light she is.
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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:17 pm

And this is her at around 9 or 10 weeks ...not a great pic, I had to take a picture of a printed picture I have in the house.
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SpWaMc91
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:58 pm

@Artic_Wind wrote:
I know zero about genetics, but to produce a silver and white husky (which is  a sub category of grey and whites) it is my understanding a white parent is bred with a grey and white parent to achieve a silver and white husky. I've had several silver and white huskies and each time the mother was white and the father a grey and white...and the whites parents always had a red and white so red, I believe, is a factor in the white huskies. All my silver and white huskies, as puppies, were almost all white, with buffs of red and then the faint black markings.

Edit to add...all puppies in the litters were either silver and white or pure white and all my silver and whites had the black pigmentation (eye liner, nose, etc.)

And all of this would be consistent with the assertion that a "white" Siberian Husky is, genetically, an animal whose phaelomelanin (red coloring) has been diluted by the I-series to cream or white -- similarly to Samoyeds, Great Pyrenese, or even Golden Retrievers.

The top dominant in the A-series is Ay (Sable), and it is generally understood that there are three varieties:

1) Clear Sable -- Who don't show any black, unless they've got the gene for black masking.

2) Tipped Sable -- Who show black faintly, as it forms on the tips of each hair and is concentrated on the body, head, and tail.

3) Shaded Sable -- Who show plenty of black, as it gathers in clusters irregularly throughout the coat.

I would argue that dogs that the breed proponents would refer to as Sable would fall into the second and third categories, with the first category being where dogs called "light red", "light copper", "cream", and in the case of I-series dilution "white" would be filed under."
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:18 pm

I wish Huskymom09 would still be active here, she would probably be a tremendous help to you, she is better than any book and is a great breeder. Maybe pm her through the site and notifications would go to her email.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sat Jul 07, 2018 1:09 pm

OK So from reading this thread and from searching the internet.....White is a recessive coat color, it is a masking coat color, and dependent on the points is what color the dog actually is. Liver points will be a red and black points will be a black. It is that simple. As I stated above there are 2 types of whites, again, based on the points of the dog. "This color, or lack thereof, is a result of the complete restriction of pigment and extension of white over the dog's entire body. A white Siberian can have liver-colored or black points (the color of the nose and the skin around the eyes). The undercoat is silver or white." and this "(recessive trait in Siberian Huskies, dog is genetically black, grey, red, etc., but white 'covers' it up - more of a coat pattern, than a true color)" and so I do not appear to not produce where I got the info, the top section of this article also explains how some whites are reds and some whites are blacks.... https://animalso.com/breeds/siberian-husky/white-husky/ Once I get a hold of my friend studying dog genetics who also rescues huskies who also has 2 huskies, one being white I will post up her response. However, from everything I have read, there are definitely 2 types of white huskies, so no not all white huskies are reds.
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:34 pm

That is the contention of Siberian Husky affacionados, yes, but what I posited was that as this moment there isn't any evidence to suggest this alleged "masking gene" actually exists -- and on top of this, the explanation of all white Siberian Huskies being phenotypically red w/ I-series dilution fits nicely into every coupling scenario, AND also jives with the rest of the dog world (specifically, Samoyed, which originated in the same region).

Just because a breed standard says something doesn't mean there is scientific justification for it -- for example, many high-profile breeders of Great Danes contend that piebald doesn't exist within the breed. Yet, that is exactly what their "mantle" animals are, piebalds.
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:36 pm

All Samoyed's are white, I would not be comparing a siberian to a sammy, just mho. There are three reputable Face Book pages, one is a coat color group in which I do not belong to. The other two are Embark groups, one I admin on and actually posed the question. In a nutshell those who are much more scientific than myself agreed with me. I am awaiting on my other friend to respond. Once I get additional info I will gladly share. But the consensus is black point white dog is a black color, and a liver point white dog is a red. The white is a masking gene, just like there is a black masking gene. The people that I asked the question are not husky owners per say, one owns a rare Japanese breed, and is a breeder, another is a Tamaskan breeder, another is a West Siberian Laika owner and a wolf dog owner, the last one and awaiting her reply is the only one who actually owns huskies. All 4 people study genetics and are very well known in the embark community, they are not bias as you presume I am. I am not bias at all. Altho sammy's originated in a similar area does not mean they have any genetics that are similar. Likewise, many people believe huskies came first, so sammy's were not around exactly at the same time.
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sat Jul 07, 2018 3:57 pm

I wasn't suggesting that you were biased, but that many breed proponents are absolutely using incorrect terminology from a genetic perspective.

An example being "dark red", which isn't red at all but liver (brown).

As to that consensus, I don't dispute that the base-colors can be variable, instead I posited that it probably isn't a unique, special, Siberian Husky-exclusive masking gene that causes the white... but rather just dogs whose genetic makeup allows for their coat to present as red (and this red is extremely diluted by the I-series).

Why do I suspect this? There are three reasons, two and a half, really:

1) This is how cream/white works in every other breed, excepting all cases where the S-series is at play (S-series being Piebald).

2) There is no evidence whatsoever to suggest a "white masking gene" exists at all.

3) As we generally understand the I-series, which strengthens reds to deep mahogany or weakens reds to pale creams or whites, we can see that when we look at every crossing of white SH's with non-white SH's the results are entirely in keeping with what they would be if the white dogs were simply phenotypically red animals with I-series dilution.

Just because a bunch of people say something, doesn't make it true -- especially when there isn't any genetic evidence in favor of their conclusion, and when the same question has been asked and answered for dozens of other breeds and the consensus there was that the white animals were genetically hardwired to present as red-coated animals with I-series dilution.
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:02 pm

SP.......the only thing I can tell you is this.......this forum is for huskies, and husky owners, the information you are looking for will probably not come from here. Most genetic savvy people no longer participate in this setting. There is more at play than the simpleness of all white dogs are reds, because it just isn't so. I would join one of the embark groups on FB and ask your question there, that way you will have unbiased answers and more scientifically deemed answers, that you are clearly looking for. I presume, you just have not came across any white huskies that are black points and came back thru embark as not being reds, like Jenn up above posted her white dogs results, because Kye is not a white that is actually a red, Kye is white and came back as black. If embark, that is the leader currently on dog dna can have white dogs come back as not red, then that is your genetic dna tested answer. The answer is very clear thru embark, some white huskies are reds and some white huskies are blacks. Again, join those groups, I believe that we are both on the same page, except the ideology that some whites are blacks. I think that red recessive is the key issue, and I believe that if you posed this question in a non breed specific site you will get the answer you are looking for. I stand firm on the very simple premise that some white dogs are red and some are black, and thru dna testing it will show why not all white dogs are reds. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Kye is genetically kyky, which means he's genetically black but allow the A-series to show instead of the K-series.

A-series including Clear Sable, Tipped Sable, Shaded Sable, "Wild Coloring", and Recessive Black.

K-series being Dominant Black, Brindle and the ky-variant mentioned above.

So Kye doesn't "come back as black", he genetically has black points but instead of expressing his K-series (black coat), he would be expressing his A-series (i.e. red coat).

That said, I'll definitely hit Embark.
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sun Aug 12, 2018 9:43 pm

I'm not sure what Laikas colour is in english but in Finnish it's "riistanvärinen" (quarry colored). It's not wolf grey.

And Hide is black and white piebald OR splash coat.




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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sun Aug 12, 2018 10:11 pm

Fairly certain it's wolf gray. And splash coat.
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PostSubject: Re: Husky Coat Colors   Sun Sep 02, 2018 1:53 am

hi everyone! wanted to post a picture of my new little baby! it seems she may be “isabella white” currently. her mom is black/white and her dad is white husky. what do you think the odds are she will stay this color? she has some yellowing on the back of her ears and down her spine.

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