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 Shock Collar

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gabea87
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PostSubject: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:44 pm

Obviously huskies are known for not listening and doing things on their own time. I wanted to know if anyone has tried a shock collar and if it works or not. Some people at the dog park told me to look into it "especially for a husky cause theyre stubborn". Lilu really isnt that bad, but she wont do any commands outside or if i dont have treats. I want her to be able to sit/come etc outside when I need those commands most.
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jschrader
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 1:50 pm

I would never use a shock collar, in fact my trainer would refuse to sell them to anyone. It's a fact of life with huskies that they are going to have selective hearing. I almost always have to use treats to get them to do what I want them to. A lab or retriever is more apt to listen and obey all of the time.
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dlthorn
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:03 pm

huskies were bred to be independent theirs no way around it.
unless your willing to wear the shock collar and know how it feels then definitely don't use a shock collar
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gabea87
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:06 pm

Yea David I would always try it first and know exactly how each levels feels. I dont want to hurt her, just to train her for her own benefit. There are times when she puts herself in danger and that is what scares me. We have been very diligent with her since we work from home, so she is VERY well trained in the house. She will do any trick as long as there is a treat for her. It's just outside that is the issue.
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dlthorn
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:10 pm

mines the same way, in fact lol im pretty sure most of us on this forum probably have the same issue.
my advice would be to just assume she cant be off leash.
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:12 pm

I would be very cautious and think critically about anybody telling you, essentially, that "your dog has a certain nature and if you are gonna change that nature you need a shock collar."

Just sit on that for a while.

For the record, I am not against shock collars across the board.
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:17 pm

I thought about using it with Dizzy. Ultimately, I decided on other methods, and have been satisfied. Personally, I am not against them as many people seem to be. I actually did try one out on myself and it was not painful, provided you keep the level low. Ever been to a physical therapist where they hook up stim? It feels like that, only less intense and momentary. Most modern e collars and trainers recommend keeping the level at the point where the dog first notices it. They may flick and ear, or scratch their neck.

When I was considering one for Dizzy, I found this guy to be a particularly good resource www.loucastle.com. He is a very experienced, retired trainer that worked with police and protection dogs. Although, take it with a grain of salt, nothing provides miracles.

And I agree with Jeff's statement.
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:18 pm

Also, for what it's worth, folks in dog parks rarely give good advice.
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:19 pm

There is a huge difference between a dog with a certain nature and a dog with problems. I'm pretty sure shock collars are best used for dogs with problems.
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gabea87
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:23 pm

She is never offleash since we live in a pretty urban area (Jersey City is right over the water from NYC). The problem is she pulls sometimes when we're walking even though we use a harness that leashes from the front. Because of that and if she get a slight running start (like she sees a doggy friend across the street) I'm worried my GF will not be able to restrain her and she'll run across the street and sometime very bad will happen.
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gabea87
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:24 pm

something very bad*
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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:25 pm

@seattlesibe wrote:
There is a huge difference between a dog with a certain nature and a dog with problems.  I'm pretty sure shock collars are best used for dogs with problems.

Why? Personally I feel a dog who has "problems" is usually one who is responding based out of fear stemming from one place or another. Why add pain to fear to fix the fear?

Shock collars aren't necessary- IMO. Especially for what these people are suggesting it for.

I know people who use them successfully, but I view it as "imagine how much MORE drive and precision that dog would WANT to have if his motivation was reward and not punishment."

Food for thought.

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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:26 pm

@gabea87 wrote:
She is never offleash since we live in a pretty urban area (Jersey City is right over the water from NYC). The problem is she pulls sometimes when we're walking even though we use a harness that leashes from the front. Because of that and if she get a slight running start (like she sees a doggy friend across the street) I'm worried my GF will not be able to restrain her and she'll run across the street and sometime very bad will happen.

This is not a scenario for a shock collar.

Have you been shown how to properly use a front attach harness? The training method behind it?

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jschrader
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:28 pm

I would suggest enrolling in a professional training class, even if it is at PetSmart or PetCo. They will teach you loose leash walking and heeling.

Also, I do use the metal pinch collars, and that does help with pulling, however you have to know how to use them properly. There is no magic collar that you are going to find that will make the dog walk without pulling. It takes time, patience and training.
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dlthorn
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:28 pm

ah I thought you meant calling her when she was off leash and all that my apologies, mines been getting better with the pulling and listening with age. I wouldn't expect a miracle with a shock collar either way its going to take a lot of training and hard work. maybe try the shock collar for a while and see how things go for a while.
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wpskier222
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 2:33 pm

I was thinking it was for recall as well. I don't think it would be even remotely (see what I did there) helpful to use it in this type of situation. I think a basic obedience class is in order. Even is she if good in the house, training classes generally deal with the issue of pulling on the leash, but your girlfriend will have to practice with her as well.
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amymeme
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:10 pm

Give a prong collar some serious consideration. I am a 62 year old, 5'3" woman with health problems, arthritic hands and 60 pounds of young, enthusiastic, sometimes ballistic, mostly untrained male husky. When we got him from the shelter, they showed us his prong collar (actually, the gave it to me). I am able to comfortably and pleasantly walk this beastie-boy twice a day, up to 6 miles total using this collar. Combine that with a Rok Strap stretchy leash and when he goes "pogo stick" I get to keep my shoulder intact Very Happy . It doesn't entirely stop the pulling (for instance, when we go down the road that has the remains of field-dressed deer it's every man for himself!) but it does make it manageable.

The collar I got from the shelter was a Herm Sprenger with a side release buckle. They have a woman who comes in and fits the collars to the individual dogs. I'm real p****d at the moment because I dropped his collar in the snow in the backyard while letting him play and now I can't find it. So I'm using the backup from tractor supply that does not have the side release buckle and it is very hard on my hands - but the big boy is very patient with me, fortunately, and sits incredibly still for a husky.

I have to say - with this collar and this wonderful dog, my health has been coming back in leaps and bounds. Last year this time I was starting to look at rollators and other walking aids. This year I'm tromping through the snow in all sorts of nasty weather, rain, snow or ice! This dog and this collar have probably seriously extended my lifespan. I probably would not have got the dog had he not had the collar - I did not know about prong collars and said I needed to see if I could handle the dog on leash. They let me walk him for a half hour, I fell in love, he's wonderful and all's well that ends well. Except for the #$%^&* collar in the snow and more rackety placken snow on its way Mad 

Here's link: http://www.leashesbydesign.com/ProngCollars/ProngCollars.html - I have not ordered from them, I don't have the ladies name that fits the collars at the shelter but this looks to be essentially the same. Important, get the side release buckle, not the quick release (reviews say that release is unreliable.) And research how to properly fit and use the thing. The only correction I have used with Ami is a brief, almost imperceptabe flick of the wrist and I say "Ami, Pace" so he'll learn to slow down on verbal commands.

All that being said, I did have one instance walking on a new trail in the woods where he almost dumped me in a river - he was a-pullin' and a-pullin' - husband asked if I wanted help, I said no but he did proceed to drag me a while before I was able to stop. That however was when we had him a week, he minds me much better now and I am stronger.

If your girlfriend spends the time with the dog, she will learn to manage.
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 3:53 pm

Same boat here. A shock collar would be overkill to train how to respect a leash. It's not simple or quick, but it can be done with patience and the proper bonding techniques on walks.

I find it helpful to teach context specific cues, especially now that your pup is old enough to know the difference between one situation and the other.

My Husky is like a totally different animal with his no-pull harness on when it is front-clipped vs when it is back clipped.

When front clipped, he more or less heels and is always looking up at me, making eye contact and aiming to please and be good. This was trained like any other thing. Rewarding for spontaneous eye contact and also by asking for eye contact followed by a reward. Rewards are treats, loose leash, quick jogs, and verbal engagement (he's not much for physical touch as rewards). When we walk around the city he is almost always front clipped. This means business and I am in control, pay attention.

When he is back clipped, this is more free range, have fun, pull, run, meander, whatever. It is much more difficult for me to have tight control over him when back clipped and it is easier for him (not tangles or tripping or wrong sides) to free roam. As soon as I switch the clip, he knows things are different.

By regularly doing both clips and expecting different behaviors, this engages the dog mentally, and since we are dealing with working dogs, it makes them feel like they have a purpose or a mission. Variety keeps them from being bored, frustrated, and set in a pattern that doesn't work for you. I think generally past 6 or 7 months we can start teaching context specific behaviors like this and it becomes easier when you have different gear or different uses for the same gear with different contexts.

Don't get into a battle of wills. Find clever ways around that. It can be done.
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seattlesibe
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:05 pm

@arooroomom wrote:

@seattlesibe wrote:
There is a huge difference between a dog with a certain nature and a dog with problems.  I'm pretty sure shock collars are best used for dogs with problems.


Why? Personally I feel a dog who has "problems" is usually one who is responding based out of fear stemming from one place or another. Why add pain to fear to fix the fear?

Shock collars aren't necessary- IMO. Especially for what these people are suggesting it for.

I know people who use them successfully, but I view it as "imagine how much MORE drive and precision that dog would WANT to have if his motivation was reward and not punishment."

Food for thought.

Why?...which part?

I agree that the root of problems is perhaps fear, or some other sort of imbalance or mistreatment.

I'm not personally sold on the specific needs for shock collars because I have never firsthand dealt with an imbalanced, unfulfilled dog who is somehow a threat or dangerous or causing serious problems. To be clear, I've never advocated for their use and wasn't here.

I just reiterated I think the best use of them, hypothetically, is for extreme problem scenarios and that I don't--especially now that she's elaborated--think it would be needed or appropriate in the case in this thread.

For all their controversy I also don't think shock collars are all about pain or using pain to deter behavior. If they're causing true pain--not just an annoyance or an attention grabber or a quick check or a "hey" similar to what we could do with one or two fingers--then they are being used improperly and inappropriately and I would be fully on board to opposing their use.

I've felt them, and they are not painful in the majority of the possible settings, and our skin will receive stimulus much more directly and dramatically than a dog like a Husky will, with their coats.




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dlthorn
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:09 pm

you could always try the gentle leader i've heard from friends that once your dog gets used to it it works wonders.



http://www.amazon.com/PetSafe-Gentle-Leader-Headcollar-Large/dp/B00074L4W2/ref=sr_1_1/186-7943022-9908519?ie=UTF8&qid=1391454497&sr=8-1&keywords=the+gentle+leader
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:12 pm

They would feel the shock the same as we would, the metal prongs have to make direct contact with the skin for them to receive any shock.

In my opinion, the best use for a shock collar is if you need 100% compliance 100% of the time, for example, when training a dog to bite. Accuracy in that case can be life or death. If you want 100% compliance, you shouldn't have a husky. You should have a well bred, temperament tested german shepherd. A dog trained to chase, bite, and hold a person, until an officer arrives, must be perfect and trustworthy.
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:19 pm

So in other words training with it to promote a behavior rather than eliminate a behavior?
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:26 pm

Exactly. I don't see it as punitive, but as a more precise and accurate tool to communicate (of course when used properly). They actually used to be used at high levels to push a dog to bite, using pain, and then removing the shock when the dog did bite, so removing something negative. Modern e collar trainers use it more as a communication tool, especially in sporting dogs and working dogs.
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:30 pm

And they're used for things like tracking, herding, hunting in a way to keep dogs on course, yeah? When they sway of course--buzz---back on course--good dog.
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PostSubject: Re: Shock Collar   Mon Feb 03, 2014 4:48 pm

@seattlesibe wrote:
And they're used for things like tracking, herding, hunting in a way to keep dogs on course, yeah?  When they sway of course--buzz---back on course--good dog.

From what I understand, yes. It redirects the drive. I do think it has it's place, especially when combined with reward, but I think most pet owners can get their dogs to a level of training that they can live with without using an aversive. I don't think it necessary to train a family dog. Although, to be honest a pinch/choke collar is also an aversive. I honestly don't see a huge difference between the two, aside from the learning curve with an e collar, both can be helpful with training, both can be abusive and cause issues when in uneducated hands.
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