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 Loki had a seizure this morning.

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eander83
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Thu Jul 13, 2017 1:26 pm

Jimmy, Thank you for posting this. I have read it several time over the last week.
Now for an update. Loki turned 5 today and that little turd ( I mean that in the most loving way) had a 10 second seizure this morning on the bed. He made the sounds like he was going to throw up but didn't. Had his seizure and peed while doing it, thank god for mattress protectors. We were so close to a month of no seizures, just 4 days shy. So we are thinking that the triggers are thunder (he has had 2 the evening/morning of thunderstorms), fireworks (last night someone was popping them off, so basically loud noises) or the new fence (Kevin put in a new fence and the wood is treated against bugs, high termite area. Kevin failed to mention the first two seizure that Loki was chew on a piece of left over fence. He may have found one this time since Kevin finished the fence on sunday so after work I will scourge the yard.)
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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Thu Jul 13, 2017 8:39 pm

Happy Birthday Loki!!!!!

Malukhai was similar with loud noises, only fireworks and thunder didn't bother him, but the sound of jet airplanes made him hide Sad there are certain times when the military does some flying in our skies, it's not exactly close by, not super far either, but the sound "echoes" as it's going through the clouds I guess, it is an awful sound, it's a very rapid "boom boom boom boom boom... He would seizure sometimes around those times. I often wondered if it was because he was just a puppy when he was put on a airplane to come here to live with me. Might just be coincidence, but I think I mentioned how his worst seizures were December 21...he was put on the airplane from North Carolina to San Diego, on December 19. It's only a 2 day difference and I wondered if that 2 day period would be when the sedative they put him on before the flight would have completely worn off (?) I don't know, to me it's just more than coincidence that this was the one date that he seizured consecutively for 3 years.

In Loki's case, Erica, I'm actually hoping it's the fencing. To me, that would mean that simply not being able to chew on any of it, would "cure" his seizuring! To me it would make more sense than epilepsy given Loki's age. He can, of course, develop seizures at his age, it's just not the "typical" age. Typical age is up to the 2 year range and in mine, it proved correct in all 3 dogs. I don't know, I'm just hopeful for you, that it's the fencing that caused it. Have you looked up what chemical is used to treat wood for termites to see the effects/side effects it can have on people/animals, if eaten? I might look later on tonite when I have more time.


Last edited by Artic_Wind on Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:12 pm; edited 1 time in total
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aljones
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Thu Jul 13, 2017 9:27 pm

And I'm hoping that it's not the fence!!  The ingredients used to treat fencing as a preservative and insect (read termite) control are Disodium Octaborate Tetrahydrate which, on one hand is considered "safe" with the warning that it may be hazardous to fish and wildlife.  The other ingredient is our old friend ethylene glycol -- see the MSDS entry  (pdf) for BoraCare a commercial product and it appears to be available only commercially.

Very mixed signals here. Q&A indicate that it can be purchased by a homeowner but it's considered a commercial insecticide. The juxtaposition of "safe" but may be hazardous to wildlife isn't explained that I can see.
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Artic_Wind
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Thu Jul 13, 2017 10:03 pm

I still hope it's the fence. Eliminating the source that triggered the seizures, should eliminate the seizures. In Loki's case, it's the old fencing that was taken down so if every piece is thrown away, he can't chew on it anymore, and thus, shouldn't seizure anymore. I think that's better than seizures for the rest of his life if it would turn out to be idiopathic epilepsy. Every seizure a dog has, lowers the threshold for a next seizure, that's why it's so important to get control over them. Meds don't eliminate the seizures usually, there are still often break through seizures, but the meds reduce the number of seizures, slowing down the seizure threshold being broken down.

Two things I do not know though, are...(1) are there long term effects from this stuff being in his system? And (2) does the age of the old fencing play into a possibly reduced toxicity if eaten? The answer to the first question may change my mind on whether I'd still hope it was the fence being the trigger.
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eander83
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:25 am

Hello everyone just thought I would give an update. We are one month seizure free. (crosses fingers that I don't jinx this). After Loki last seizure I sat down with Kevin and we discussed things we noticed and what not, things that happened before each seizure (fireworks, thunder, etc) and the only thing we saw that after his monthly preventatives (heartguard and nexgard) about 2 weeks out he would have a seizure (keeping a recird ready does help). We put the boys on nexgard last year after a bad flea infestation that the whole block got(seriously all my neighbor's pets ended up with fleas.) Before we were using frontline. So I did some digging on the internet and see so many horror stories on nexgard talked it over with Kevin and we decide to no longer administer it. So this month the boys just got their heartguard. So far no seizures, praying that we are going in the right direction. Loki's diet has changed as well. He gets a liver supplement with dinner and gets a decent good night treat so he has food in his belly most of the night since he seems to throw up around 3am. Hopefully this is the last I have to post in this thread about his seizures.
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 10:05 am

I hope this is it, Erica. That would be the greatest news! I OFTEN had thoughts of it being the flea preventative when Malukhai was seizuring. They were on topicals at the time but during a seizure, sometimes he peed and the pee just reeked of the topical (I think it was Advantage but I'm really not sure) the topical smell was STRONG.

Kohdi and Mishka are on Nexgard, for two years now. Flea infestations here have been insane the last few years. Nexgard seemed the lesser of the evils when I compared the preventatives, like Comfortis. So hearing it could be Nexgard causing Loki's seizures is worrisome to me Sad Kohdi I think was at 59 or 60lbs and the weight breakdown for Nexgard has him taking an amount that goes all the way up to a 120lb dog! Kohdi is at the very very bottom of the minimum weight category for his dosage and that has bothered me already. I know as a fact I can't take having another dog with seizures. I think I'd just lose my mind.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:19 pm

Erica, I would test Loki for MDR1 gene mutation. Sounds to me like Miya's issue, when she was on comfortis and heartgard. As soon as I stopped giving her comfortis the issue went away, I have been giving a topical for fleas and ticks along with her heartgard (I actually give 2 weeks apart, and I also stretch out the timing of the doses, heartgard is every 45 days, and the topical every 2 months during off season, so they only get flea meds monthly during the summer). Apparently the factor with MDR1 is using drug combos, i.e. the flea med and heartgard at the same time. I recommend the MDR1 test, but if you decide not to, if Loki has to ever have surgery you need to ask for greyhound protocol, which should make any surgery safer. To read up more on MDR1 http://vcpl.vetmed.wsu.edu/ I truly hope that is the issue for Loki, and with extra knowledge, you should be able to avoid these issues in the future.
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eander83
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:19 pm

Reene, Thank you. I just ordered a cheek swab kit.
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:28 pm

You are very welcome Smile I also avoid rosemary in any food or treat that I give daily, I have read several places that rosemary could attribute to seizures, human cases as well as dog cases, although there hasn't been any definitive tests with rosemary, I decided to just try and avoid the ingredient. I wish you and Loki the best and hope this is now finally behind y'all <3
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eander83
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:35 pm

I read on one of the other threads on here about rosemary so I have removed that from all treats as well. You know how hard it is to get treats now. It isn't just run into the store and buy some. Django can't have rice, Loki avoiding rosemary. I am that crazy dog lady in the treat aisle reading all the ingredients.
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:44 pm

Also Erica, if he isn't MDR1 positive, just the knowledge that he is fine when off Nexgard says to me it is the combo of the drugs. Comfortis has spinosad and nexgard has afoxolaner. I use a very basic topical, Fiprogard, I don't have a serious flea issue, more tick issue than fleas, and the fiprogard has just fipronil in it, I have not ever had a problem using these 2 items, heatgard and fiprogard. I am unsure if it's because they take the flea med internally along with the heartworm med, or if the combo of the 2 drugs sets off seizures. All I know is by limiting how much, when I administer, and what I give Miya doesn't have mini seizure like she did. She was a wee puppy when it happened, so when she was old enough to do flea meds and heartworm meds we did comfortis and heartgard, and by 6 months of age, I couldn't take her seizures anymore, and read up on the 2 drugs. I do know that there is one other alternative for flea and heartworm, but I decided that the combo I use now works for fleas and heartworm and she has no seizures when on these, so I decided not to rock the boat, and just go with what I know works for her.

Look at what dog food you feed as well, it is next to impossible to find grain free, rosemary free, flax free, chicken free, egg free food and treats. My gsd is allergic to chicken, eggs and flax, and Miya can't have grains and the rosemary. It is so very difficult, don't feel bad, I am the crazy dog lady in Texas reading packages of food and treats. Very Happy
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Mon Sep 18, 2017 4:18 pm

Jimmy, from what I understand it is not at all to do with the flea meds individually, it is the combo effect of heartgard with internal flea meds that I have read is the issue. One of the meds alone will not necessarily cause seizures but when done in combo can. Reading packages also helps, I do believe one of the side effects of comfortis is seizures, after Miya's issues I will not give her an internal flea med, in conjunction with heartgard. Since I Heartgard is the only heartworm preventive Miya will take, I decided that a topical flea med and stay with the heartgard was my best solution. So it has more to do with heartgard and not as much with the flea meds, if that makes sense. Read the link I provided Erica, it clearly states that Ivemectin (spelling) that is the main ingredient in heartgard can produce seizures in seizure prone animals, and that combo drugs like spinosad (flea preventive in comfortis) taken with heartgard (heartworm preventive with ivomect) is the issue. Miya also had issues during her spay, with the meds to put her out, and the link I provided also clearly has meds associated with seizures for putting animals out for surgeries. That is why I mentioned if Erica or me ever have to have Loki or Miya put out for a surgery that we both need to ask for Greyhound surgery protocol, for the most safe way for surgeries for seizure prone dogs.
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eander83
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:04 am

Renee, I was/am feeding Taste of the Wild Pacific formula but Loki is losing interest in it so I am slowing moving him to Acana Heritage Fresh fish Formula. Django has a rice allergy and just has pooplosion when he has it in anything. I had to yell at my mom because she loves to spoil the boys but she was buying treats without looking at labels. Now I have 2 dogs with dietary issues. I get my swabs for the test in 2 weeks. Told Kevin about it last night and he was very happy that we have a community that is so willing/eager to help. I really can't thank you all enough for helping me keep it together this last few month.
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Wed Sep 20, 2017 12:41 am

@Renee, thank you! With Malukhai (and Blitz as well) I was using topicals, and if they peed in a seizure, I swear, the smell was the topical I was giving them...that's the only reason I considered the flea med to be a possible trigger. With Kohdi and Mishka on the Nexgard, I wouldn't be so worried if Kohdi wasn't getting almost double the med that he actually needs. I DO understand the combination heartgard/internal flea med thing, but it's still worrisome to me that Kohdi gets so much. Mishka on the other hand, is at the top tier of the weight to med ratio so she's good. Kohdi hovers at the 59lb weight, I think the top end of Nexgard is 55lbs before going to the next level dosage. It just bothers me that his chewable goes all the way up to 120lbs Sad and yeah, I purposely never even considered Comfortis for my two based solely on what you had already told me about it and seizures.

@ Erica, purely a question out of curiosity and for my own knowledge, but how long was Loki getting the combination meds before his seizures started? I do think Renee is correct and it is highly probable that it's the combination of the two meds (I either read it somewhere before, or someone told me about it...when I read Renees post it clicked in my head) so I'm just curious if it happened somewhat quickly or it took awhile. Also, I've had my two on the Acana freshwater fish for a little while now, they've done well on it except for poop issues here and there, but I just this week changed to the lamb recipe and they LOVE it, instead of the Heritage line, it is the *Singles* line (protein is from one single meat source instead of several) and is supposed to be great for dogs needing limited ingredient diets, so if you have any issues with the heritage fish, try the lamb, my two just love it. And no issues <knock wood, haha>
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MiyasMomma
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PostSubject: Re: Loki had a seizure this morning.   Wed Sep 20, 2017 4:21 am

Jimmy I have the same problem with Miya, the heartgard is 50 pounds to 100 pounds, so she is on the bottom of that scale at around 65-70 pounds. With the heartgard I stretch the dosage out, Val had mentioned and I confirmed with the pharmacist and she confirmed that dosage didn't have to be every 30 days, that the efficacy is fine even at 45 days, so that is what I do with that.With their topical they fit much better, it is 44-88 pounds. I really don't know about the smell, the fiprogard that I use doesn't smell, but it may be possible that is what you did smell, or if it was after they were diagnosed with seizures, then possible it could have been a drug you were already giving them?? I am going to be honest here, I believe Miya still has a form of seizures, maybe called focal, she will stare off into space, outside I always thought she was just watching something, but inside she isn't watching anything, and normally after she has been sleeping. I minimize as much as I can. East of the Rockies, we need to use heart worm preventive. Miya will only take heart gard, I have tried others, but it is a chore to get her to take pills. I decided that the flea and tick preventives is what I would have to find the least issued item out there. I also stretch the dose. Fipronil is effective for upwards of 3 months, and I only give monthly June-September, if that, it may be 60 days in between, maybe 45, I watch to see how bad those critters are and adjust as needed, but keep it under 90 days. I would look at nexgards efficacy, and perhaps you can stretch out the doses some. Tho it may not be comforting, but drug companies test dosing, so what should cause seizures is very high amounts far more than what we give our pets to protect, that is why I have read and also just "felt" it was a combo of the 2 drugs, not necessarily on its own that cause seizing in animals. I wish they could tighten up the weight amounts so instead it would be in 25 pound increments vs 50 or 100 pound increments. Otherwise, I can only suggest having Kohdi drop 4 pounds, which he doesn't need to, but that would be your only other way to avoid the higher dosing. I feel ya on that.
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Loki had a seizure this morning.

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