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 The Desert Pack

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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyMon Apr 13, 2020 11:15 am

I have cilantro, basil, and parsley up. Debating on if to do any dill. I had it at the other house. It self seeds so I have to be careful where I put it and just haven't decided on a spot. Been dealing with freezes here the last couple days. I have onions, leeks, broccoli, cabbage, lettuce, spinach, bok choy, and mustard in the garden now. Put in some carrot seeds a couple days ago. When it's nice out we do similar to you and open everything up. Not the front door but I've been leaving the back door open for the dogs through the warmer part of the day and they wander in and out. Kenzi has been hunting my toads so that privilege is probably going to soon be revoked. Don't want them killing my toads.

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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 12:29 pm

Cats: ???
Well, this is the pits. I had three cats - now it seems as if I'm down to one.
My black cat - the one who normally sleeps on the back of my couch/bed - has been gone for about three days and he doesn't miss food often ...
My white cat is waiting to be buried. He's normally been a recluse but then he's always been around. I went out yesterday to find him lying out behind the trailer and almost non-responsive when I went to see what he was doing. A quick trip to my local vet and he had a urinary blockage; doc worked him over but he never came out of the sedation (very light sedative so the vet could manipulate 'sensitive areas') I'm not a cat person but this sucks!
The tabby that wandered in out of the desert is still here but he doesn't get along with the dogs so he stays in his part of the house or mostly outside.

And I have to get out today to do some shopping, etc. Up until yesterday I hadn't gone anywhere for a week or so ... I can get about a weeks worth out of the 10 gals of gas for the generator when then sun doesn't shine.

_________________
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“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”
Corey Ford
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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 1:14 pm

Thats sad about the cats. I have 2 right now that are hanging around, dunno where they came from and sadly they harrass the dogs and i have a feeling squirt wants at them. Maybe the black cat will show up. My cat in nh, Loki disappeared for about a week came home injured,he got into a fight with a bear. Then we had george a few years back who got picked up by a hawk and 3 weeks later was back at the front door. Cats are pretty resilient.
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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 1:36 pm

Thanks for the sympathy. My cats are really intended as mousers since the local desert rats don't mind walking into a house where people are up and around! I'd really like to get my hands on an intact female - but so does everyone else!
Digging a grave is hard, our soil tends to be a light sand over hardpan so it's dig some and then water it down and come back later (should be time enough by now) the hardpan loosens up nicely when it's wet but still isn't any good to grow anything.
I'm rambling ....

_________________
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“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”
Corey Ford
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Apr 22, 2020 2:05 pm

Al - I'm so sorry to hear about the kitties Sad They do have a way of wrangled their way into our life. Hopefully the black one is just on walk about and will show up again.
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyThu Apr 23, 2020 12:53 pm

Oh no. What a shock to have so many cat troubles all at once. So sorry to hear that. I have a soft spot for cats. Growing up in a rural area it always seemed like people had an active hatred for cats and just went out of their way to treat them bad. People would sometimes have them as mousers. Kidney issues are so prevalent for cats. It's such a pain trying to get moisture in their diet on the cheap. I have run the gamut on wet foods and drinking fountains for my two out of fear of running into urinary issues. Seems like it happens so fast with very little warning before it's too late. Just awful.

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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptySun Aug 02, 2020 9:48 pm

ARGH!!!!!!!!

I swear that Sasha's gonna be the death of me - if I don't kill her first!  

Well all that to the side.  I've commented that she's got back / hip problems and has had difficulty managing the step to get into the trailer - down not a big problem; back up, well, she's lost her footing more than a few times.  Friday she got up and wouldn't/couldn't put any weight on her back left foot.  I assumed she'd gotten into one of the thorn bushes but she let me pick up her feet and I couldn't feel anything and she didn't react like there was anyplace that was sensitive.

Talked to my vet yesterday with a possible visit Monday if things don't start looking up - planned on said visit ...  Friday and Saturday she wasn't particularly hungry - a real oddity for this girl - but when she did eat, she either sat or lay down - again an oddity.

I've been working on a ramp for her, but it has to go on the front porch (or I have to weaken an already weak back porch by removing part of a support.)   Finished the ramp yesterday - made myself work in the heat, but there was a breeze so the 100° heat was almost comfortable.  I did take a few breaks for cold water, though.  Of course she isn't going to use the ramp - it's new and strange and she's going to go up and down the steps!  I've tried to nudge her onto it, physically and with treats --- but "no!"

Today her gait is almost back to normal, she's still acting like it's a little sensitive but she's putting most of her weight on it most if the time.

I think I've said that when I got her, both Mary (my vet) and I assumed she was in the two to three year old range which would make he 10ish now.  After consideration, we now seem to think that she was more in the five year old range then which would make her more like 13 now.  Over the past year, I've had to contend with a dog who's getting older, faster than I expected and, to put it mildly, (even though she's bitten me, not once but, five time!) I'm really not ready to put her down.  (( and I know I have to take her 'feelings' into consideration, when the 'good living' goes bad, then it's time ))

I've been lucky with the Covid virus situation, we've had two cases in the southern part of the county and over 175 in the north part - of course my vet's 80 miles up the road in 'North County' ... we'll see whether we make that trip or not.  For my age, I'm healthy but I've had pneumonia three times in my life and I smoke (still! damnit!) so if I come down with Covid, it's gonna be a trip to the hospital and I'm not taking book on my coming back home.

And she's told me she's hungry and eaten as I've been typing this so now it's time to go see if I can convince her to use the ramp.....

_________________
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“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”
Corey Ford
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyMon Aug 03, 2020 12:05 pm

Al, I'm sorry to hear of Sasha's troubles. Hoping the deterioration slows down.

COVID-19 here continues to decrease in the state. Coumo is keeping an iron hand on what's allowed to open, crowd density, masks etc. Amidst a very vocal dissent from some quarters (my younger son among them 🙄.) Our county so far counts 22 cases, all recovered. Just about all are travel related and we smart enough to self quarantine on return so community spread is almost non-existent. Is like to keep it that way!

Ami got a big boost last year when I started Dasuquin. Though later found he was highly positive for Lyme, which was treated. So not sure if he needs to continue the Dasuquin or not. Not keen on fixing what ain't broke and right now here's not broke so I'll continue. Z'ev is now 12 but you would never guess. Unless you look carefully at his eyes - the skin around his eyes is ever so slightly droopy. Otherwise, he's energetic and spry. And still likes to think he's king of the roost with Ami on occasion. I wish he'd cut that crap, I'd prefer to stop with the muzzle but I'm not gonna let him injure Ami. Ami has a sweet, loves everyone, 2 and 4 footed, temperament and I'd like to keep it that way. We have to be so careful, Ami like to be outside and Z'ev wants to be...under our feet 24/7.  If we give Z'ev any slight extra consideration, treat etc, he becomes unbearably "top dog, get out of my house."

And, really funny, he's so much like the kid who provokes his sibling out of sight of parents then turns on the charm, butter wouldn't melt in his mouth when you catch him. It's hysterical, I can be in another room, hear him savagely snarling at Ami, usually in a doorway, I come around the corner and mid snarl morphs into woo woo woo and playfulness with Ami. Wayne calls him Dr Jeckyll/Mr Hyde🙄
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyMon Aug 03, 2020 3:29 pm

Kenzi goes in the 14th. I'm not happy with how long it takes to get a dog seen up here. You are looking at 2 weeks to get an appointment at pretty much any clinic unless it's an emergency and then some will work you in or refer you to MU where you will pay 10 times the price. She has lost substantial weight, mostly muscle mass, in the last couple months despite being ravenously hungry and me upping her food a good amount. I've wormed her twice now with prazi. Hoping that is some of it, but needing to check and clear her for anything else underlying such as a tick disease (even though I have found no ticks and they've had on the saresto collars which work great. She doesn't want to go down the back stairs which is partly because she too suffers some pretty strong arthritis pains, but she has also started to develop a cataract or glaucoma in one eye (something else to get checked out during the visit) and doesn't judge the stairs very well anymore.

After keno's diagnosis I have taken on a different perspective when it comes to what I think is a simple limp from stepping on something or a sprang. After talking to more who have dogs with bone cancer that is how 80% started out. They just had a limp that wouldn't go away.

Mine are all on an MSM supplement like for people. It's a powder that goes on their food. Cheap, seems to do alright, works for me too.

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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyMon Aug 03, 2020 11:40 pm

that really sucks. I have a medical disaster of a german shepherd that also has the hip issues and arthritis and he turns 7 on aug 20th. We put him on dasuquin about 2 months ago and it seems to help. There are days like today the shadow missed the stairs and fell off the deck. Its only about 18 inches but its also concrete. Have you tried putting carpet on the ramp? I have a atv ramp with carpet for getting shadow in the truck.

Im on the jump the gun and call the vet bandwagon. It helps that i have 2 in the immediate family. Ive had several times that me being paranoid has been in my favor. The most recent life or death one being when i thought spider bloated, and she also had parvo as a puppy. And years ago i almost killed a foal because i thought something could wait a few days and well strangles ran through my barn and the barn i worked at. So now if something is off they go. At least i dont have to drive 80 miles to the vet i have a much shorter 57 mile drive there.

So the 2 week wait is normal, i just thought that was here. My vet will see animals on an emergency walk in basis for established people.
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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyThu Aug 06, 2020 11:29 am

It's been a couple of days since I posted the last ... Sasha's back to normal (I don't think she really has a normal) with just a little limp left over from not being able / wanting to walk on her left rear leg at all.
We've walked up and down the ramp a couple of times, she still doesn't want to use it - when it's obviously easier on her to walk the ram than try the steps (yeh, obvious to who?)
Mary and I decided that a vet trip wasn't necessary since she's back to *her* normal(ish.) I'm of the opinion that it was just a pinched nerve - she often sleeps on her left side ... so who really knows.

As far as vet appointments, if it seems to be something reasonably serious either of the two vets in Alpine will make room on their schedule for an animal who needs to be seen. Other than that, it's normally easy enough to get an appt within the week. We also have a retired vet locally who's still in limited practice. Mostly he does shots and spay/neuter but will handle emergencies though he doesn't have the equipment for intensive diagnosis. It's easy to compare him to the old school 'general practitioner.'

_________________
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“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”
Corey Ford
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aljones
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aljones

Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 6:07 pm

Ya know, there are times where I wonder about me and my dogs. This is a lead in to Sasha and the fact that she's not getting any better. And I'm not ready to let her go ... says more about me than her, I'm afraid.

How many time do I let her 'face plant' herself going down steps? How many time do I just watch her legs collapse under her? How long do I let her try to get up the steps - she refuses to use the ramp - and watch her legs give out? If it was obvious that she was hurting, it's not be a big thing (I lie!) but she gets up and keeps on going ... too much like "Well, that's just part of getting old..."

I've tried to lift her to help her up but (see later) she objects and I can't tell if it's pain or just "I'll do it myself!" Obviously she was not lifted up much as a puppy and I seldom lift my dogs - 4 on the floor, please - so I've known for a long time that she just doesn't like being lifted ...

Walks are pretty much out and she's the one of my three that I've enjoyed walking with. We've gone out a few times and when she's a couple of hundred yards away from the house, she heads back - is she tired, is she hurting? I wish I knew ...

Most of the time she's laying around somewhere's... well, until it's time for a meal or a treat and then she's letting me know if I'm getting too late. At the moment, she's in one of her favorite places where I have to step over her to get to the coffee.

One of my biggest problems with her, other than being on the receiving end of bites, is that I can never tell if she's just talking to me, complaining or in pain. It all comes out in the same, almost but not quite, whine.

How long ..... ?????

(( this is more rhetorical, me talking to myself ... ))

_________________
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“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”
Corey Ford
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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 9:30 pm

sorry to hear bout sasha
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aljones
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aljones

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Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 12:53 am

Talked to Mary, my vet, again this evening and she's thinking that it's nerve damage / deterioration of some kind. We took x-rays a couple of years ago that showed 'spikes' on her backbone (Mary gave me the name but I disremember) and thinks that those may be causing (part of?) the problem. If it is, and if it is pain that she's displaying then Mary says that there a couple of NSAIDS<?> that she can prescribe. For the nonce, we up the aspirin to one with breakfast and one with dinner and I keep a close watch for stomach problems - blood in urine or feces.

Emotionally I have a major problem. As a kid anytime we had a pet and mom moved - and we moved every six months or so - if it wasn't convenient to take the pet with us then she'd have it put down. She wouldn't try to find it a home, she just had it killed! The final straw with my mother - as far as pets go - was when I managed to get her a white (almost) German Shepherd a dog she'd wanted for a long time. Five years later she's moving from New York to Florida (and I was still living in NY, just a ways south of her) I'd have taken the dog - but she had him put down and my heart broke ...

Sasha's still getting along on her own power and even though it hurts to see her 'face plant' as long as she gets up and keeps on trucking I'll cheer her on! We shall see what we shall see ....

_________________
The Desert Pack - Page 11 GY3Hm5The Desert Pack - Page 11 REEum5The Desert Pack - Page 11 2zERm5
“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”
Corey Ford
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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 9:41 am

Bone spurs? I have spikes on my spine among other issues with it. I think if my mom did that i would never own a pet again. That said my mom gave my pony away the day of my dads funeral. They divorced when i was 6 but my dad had bought the pony and my mom was having one of her uour dad bought it so... moments. Broke my back at a horse show then came home a week later to find out my mom took my show horses to the auction. My mom has issues. But with dogs and cats we always manage to find some one in the family to take them. My cat loki lives in nh now with my step grandpa. My sister had him in nj when i moved then my mom took him until she moved back to Israel so my uncle took him and he was a vet office cat for 2 years then pebo died and grandpa ed took loki.

I feel you on the face planting. Shadow falls off the deck sometimes. Different reasons. We installed doggy braille and everything and he still runs into walls.

With the ramp i would just keep trying, it took shadow awhile to learn to use it. Not to diss huskies but if it took a shepherd awhile you may just be giving up too quick.

Just wondering if you have looked into cbd. I hear alot of good things about it on dogs. I personally use it on me.
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amymeme
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amymeme

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 12:05 pm

All, I'm sorry to hear of Sasha's decline. I know well the issue with "spikes" on the spine. Aka "degenerative changes," mine is lumbar stenosis, a bony encroachment of the spinal canal. There are good days and bad days. Standing from sitting is a particular problem, not pain, just...the muscles don't seem to know how to work.

As for not knowing what Sasha's vocalizations mean one minute to the next, right there with you with Z'ev. But his are with Ami, not us. Not knowing if he's attacking or playing. I've come to just watching Ami's reaction, if Ami stops dead, then it's aggression, if Ami play bows, it's an invitation to play...

I do believe Sasha will let you know when it's time to go. For pain indicators, maybe watching her panting, her eye expressions?

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TwisterII
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TwisterII

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 5:09 pm

Kenzi is a whiner. Some just are for some reason. I don't think she's in pain, it's usually just her making noise because she hears something, or smells something, or one of the other dogs is too close to something she doesn't want them near. I never know with her. Sasha is going down much like my old bird dog did. She turned into a skeleton, went stone deaf, and could barely walk. On option on lifting could be perhaps to put her in a harness with a handle so you could gently help her but not actually have to fully lift her up. Or throw a towel under her belly and lift her with it as a sling of sorts. If she is eating fine, not losing weight, organs seem to be functioning well then I would give bigger pain meds a try if possible and see how she does. I will say, if you can get your hands on CBD that has THC in it it is the only reason Keno has made it with his cancer as long as he has. Prednisone and CBD/THC are a powerful godsend. We are nearing the end of the road with Keno. When you have more bad days than good day it's generally time. I'm to the end of what I can do for him now and the pain is creeping through those efforts. I've never had to put a dog down before.


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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 6:00 pm

Al how far are you from the colorado line? Imo the thc cbd mix is much better then either alone. And with cbd you really have to research brands to find one that is independently tested. I googled medical marijuana in Texas and its kinda a joke. If you want to do kitchen chemistry i can send info on thc infused oil.

@twisterII have you tried cbn for keno? Its by far the best thing for pain ive ever tried. Its fairly simple you just over decarb raw cured mj. Thc degrades to cbn naturally over time. You can just make it in about 20 mins in the oven or put the jar of weed in the sun until the weed starts turning to powder (here about 6 months)
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aljones
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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyThu Aug 27, 2020 2:03 am

@lostmaniac Well, it's the better part of 900 miles from here to the Springs so figure 850 more or less to the border.  More than an afternoon drive ... Smile  

Our local constabulary have a bit if a fit when it comes to THC and illegal variants - 'course they just confiscated about 1000 pounds being brought over on 'muleback' (human mules)  We're in between two major parks here in the US and on the Mexican side is another major park - and all of it's desert.  By the time the mules make it 50 miles into the US, they're ready to hand what they've got to anyone for a drink of cool water!

I haven't considered CBD, in part for the very reasons you mention - quality is an idea but from what I see not too much of a reality.  If I'm going to poison the poor girl ... well, I'm not sure but CBD seems tenuous.

_________________
The Desert Pack - Page 11 GY3Hm5The Desert Pack - Page 11 REEum5The Desert Pack - Page 11 2zERm5
“Properly trained, a man can be dog’s best friend.”
Corey Ford
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyThu Aug 27, 2020 11:53 am

@lostmaniac can't get straight up weed here. Not even supposed to have the oil with the THC level I do have without a med card. I've run the rail as far as different qualities of CBD and Hemp oils in the past and none were worth the money. the THC made the difference. No THC, not worth the time IMO. Will have to do more research on the CBN.

I am pretty much to the point where I feel it's time to make "the call". Husband is not cooperating. I've begun playing with his pred doses in hopes that will help, but the dog is basically lame and is in pain but my husband pets him and keno gives a strained smile and he just has it in his head that any dog that smiles isn't ready to go. Ugh, if we wait until he no longer smiles then we will have waited too long.

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Lostmaniac
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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyThu Aug 27, 2020 6:11 pm

If you want to grow it, seeds are perfectly legal to mail. I have quite the collection and all it costs is a stamp. Some of the genetic banks also sell seeds. If you go purchasing seeds get an autoflower variety otherwise timing the lights becomes an issue.

I like green roads cbd. What i give jerry is incredible wellness 1:1 . Now with cbd there is isolate broad spectrum and full spectrum which includes different terpenes. And then from there, there is a huge difference between cbd derived from marijuana and hemp. Here is a very good explanation of cbn https://weedmaps.com/learn/cbd/cbn-vs-cbd

Its sad when its time for them to go and someone in the hoise disagrees. We had a horse i thought should be put down my grandpa thought otherwise and the horse had a miserable 3 more years with the last 3 months in a sling. I just hope if i get that bad someone has the kindness to put me out of my misery.
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptyFri Aug 28, 2020 11:14 am

I have upped his prednisone. Now giving 20mg at night and 10mg in morning and it seems to be stabilizing things so hopefully he will at least not seem miserable when my folks come up to visit tomorrow.

I think the prednisone would probably make a big difference for Sasha. Prednisolone is cheaper and easier on the body. My vet is getting a little better about giving me the cheaper stuff now. they always start me out full name expensive stuff. Prednisolone is a smaller pill than the prednisone that I've been given in the past too, so easier to hide.

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amymeme
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Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 12:17 pm

Jenn - I hope you're not swapping prednisolone mg for mg with Prednisone. The steroid equivalence is far greater with prednisolone than prednisone. Also, generic Prednisone should be cheap cheap cheap. So cheap that I buy without going through insurance, the copay is higher than the direct pay.

Oops. Scratch that... Thinking dexamethasone
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aljones
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Male Join date : 2014-08-18
Location : Terlingua, Texas

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 1:10 pm

@TwisterII uh ... after looking at the side effects, I don't think either of those are in the offing soon.  This girl is <lost word> odd enough with her behaviour that I don't need to add anything that might exacerbate that.

I'm pretty much letting it ride with "as long as she has a healthy appetite" and "she can manage the steps reasonably" ...
There are a few oddities going on with her but none that are drastic, I think not anyway.  She's been blowing coat since - well, it seems like forever.  And her favourite place to lay down, beside under my feet, is the area in the corner at the end of the couch - between then couch and the bookcases on the other wall she can't "spin" around, she doesn't have quite enough room so she stands there and whines ... eventually gives up and drops (literally!)  This is oddly new behaviour for her ... at least the whining is ...

@amymeme my first though when I got to "scratch that" was "scratch which part?"

ETA: It's going to be warm again today ... we got to 104° yesterday and we're at 92° at 11:00 and we don't hit our high till somewhere between 16:00 and 18:00 ... the dogs are fine with the heat, somewhere after 14:00 we all crash for an hour or two. Right now A is laying in the open door, but just outside the sun; Sasha is wandering back and forth between the corner and her crate; Sky is in the other corner laying on the tile ...

Afterthought ... I've looked at pet beds like this one, but haven't bought because I'm wondering what is "large"? Have any of you used one of these and what are your (and your dogs) thoughts??

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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: The Desert Pack   The Desert Pack - Page 11 EmptySat Aug 29, 2020 1:53 pm

Scratch the steroid equivalency. The cheap cheap cheap party is still accurate. Sounds like she maybe getting ripped off.

Also. Prednisone tastes NASTY. And needs to be taken with food 'cause also nasty on the stomach!
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