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 I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)

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CoffeeK8
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I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) Empty
PostSubject: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 6:22 pm

Nikolai is absolutely fabulous most of the time. Super well behaved, very sweet, social and loves people... My challenges with him are usually getting him to eat (he's doing raw chicken + Honest Kitchen 3 days a week and Wellness Core + some variety of quality canned food 4 days a week). He also has major problems being moved. Like, if we're having dinner, he really wants to be under the table. If we're eating on the sofa, he usually army crawls his way between the coffee table and our feet. If I try to move him (either by calling him or trying to guide him by the collar), he growls or snips at me. He's also very toy possessive with us and other dogs.

Yesterday morning, during his second trip "out" before I had to leave for work, he was in the yard working on his bone (a piece of raw cow femur). I called him, he looked at me, then went back to his bone. So, I walked out into the yard to stand behind him and sort of herd him inside (and bring the bone). Once I got to where he was, he dropped the bone, jumped up and bit me in the belly/ribcage. No broken skin, but a pretty nasty bruise - now I have very hurt feelings and I'm worried. Immediately after, he went RUNNING to his crate inside and lay down. He'd earned his freedom, so recently he's been roaming the house during the day, so instead, I shut him in. While I was doing that, he stared me down, curled his lips back and growled at me. :-( I told him "no," turned my back, and left for work.

This aggression toward me is not completely new: the first month or so we had him, he snapped at me twice - once when I tried to move him out from under the table during dinner, and once when I tried to lead him out of the kitchen. Outside of those two incidents, he's never snapped at or bitten me before. There have been a few occasions where I call him out of the bedroom to go outside for a morning pee and he has snarled his lip back and growled at me, but reluctantly given in and gone outside.

He doesn't like having his neck or collar touched, so we've been very aware of his sensitivity and we don't have him wear his collar in the house. We put it on him any time we're letting him outside or we put his collar and harness on when we go for walks. Instead of trying to physically move him anywhere, I sort of body block him from places he shouldn't be, or call him and reward with a special cookie. It's worked so far, but yesterday's "setback" has me baffled and confused and hurt.

I am pretty sure it's not a medical issue - he's super happy-go-lucky the rest of the time and had his "well pet" visit in October and then was giving a clean bill of health at his last appointment in December (he had lice and was "slightly thin" but otherwise healthy).

We're stepping up our efforts at NILIF, I have two phone dates: one with the director of our rescue (he spent time in "the yard" with her, she's got 20+ years of husky experience) and another friend, who also works with our rescue. I think I have a behaviorist picked out, but for $$$$ for an evaluation and in-home visits, I want to make sure I've done everything else beforehand... I think training *me* to recognize situations where he's fearful/possessive or scared of people moving him is the key here... anyone have some insight or experience with something like this? He's NOT a bad dog, I still love him to pieces, I just recognize there's a problem and want to know the best way to go about solving it...


Last edited by CoffeeK8 on Thu Feb 24, 2011 6:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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CoffeeK8
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 6:29 pm

Two other quick things:
He's a super picky eater. Finding treats he likes is hard, because he'll like 'em one minute then be completely uninterested the next. We seriously have about 15 varieties of treats we've tried with limited success. The best so far are the K-9 Granola Softbakes (cheddar flavor) and boiled turkey. Either of those work *most* of the time, but not all of the time.

Last year, we had an altercation at the dog park, where Nikolai was trying to play (kinda rough) with a small dog (Pap/Pom mix). The dog screamed like it was dying, the owner threw their dog, tackled mine, alpha rolling him into the dirt, screamed and beat on him, screamed at me... it was traumatic for all involved. Ever since, Nikolai has been pretty rough with the little dogs... so we've been avoiding going to places where he might just eat one. ;-)

Oh, and on our trip up to the mtns. a few weeks ago with Claudia and Jenn, Chris (my hubby) was walking him and he got lunged at and bitten by a Golden or Chow (some fluffy, mean, big dog). It was enough to pop the latch his collar and he went RUNNING for dear life. Jenn caught him for us, but ever since, he's also been freaked of big dogs. *sigh*
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CoffeeK8
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 6:38 pm

Gah! I keep thinking of things to add now, sorry, this is getting CRAZY long...
On any normal day, either my hubby or I can pick his food up, or pet him while he's eating with NO problems. He's got a pretty good "leave it" command and he knows to sit before we put his food down, or give him a toy or anything. Before we give him what he wants, we tell him "OK." If we need to get something from him while he's actively working on it (the squeaker from a lobotomized toy), we'll "trade" him something else, before taking whatever he shouldn't have.
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jbealer
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 6:53 pm

There are just so many things.... How long have you had Nikolai now? and is he like this just with you or with Chris as well? the lip rolling, growling, and teeth showing reminds me of Sierra and how she is with Ken (my husband). she has a "Known" issue with men and i can say that in the 2 yrs we have had her she has gotten SOOOO much better with men. Sierra still gets what i like to say "bitchy" and grows and shows teeth to ken but he does not let it stop him from trying to pet her or move her or hug her, im sure one of these days she will bite him and maybe then he will not push her buttons. but i think it is a battle between the to of them to show who is tougher...
i don't have any real advice for you, nothing you have not all ready figured out. you know his triggers and you are trying rewards and you are talking to people, my thing is maybe he still needs time to work out his past issues.
Sierra is not trusted around small dogs, she will eat them, and Nikolai might need time to be around larger dogs again but i would not trust him with the smaller dogs. that freaking dog in the mountain snapped so fast, and the owner just walked away, im glad i was there to stop him but if i was any closer i would have yelled some crap to that lady!

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CoffeeK8
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 6:59 pm

All of his nastiness seems to have been reserved for me. :-( Chris is the object of everyone's affection. Seriously, it's a party whenever Chris comes home, even though (or maybe because?) I'm the one who usually feeds, walks, brushes, talks to, makes Kongs for, cares for, picks up after, & loves on him...

ETA: We've had him since mid-October.
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jbealer
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 7:15 pm

since you are the one doing all the "caring" it is odd that he is acting that way with you... our trainer had told us to have Ken do more of the "caring" with sierra to have her warm up to him and it did work. maybe you need to have Chris to more of the "caring" things and see if that changes anything....

you have also only had him 6 or so months and that is still a short time, it took Sierra all most a year to not get up and move if ken walked past her. i think it is smart of you to get on top of it now and work with him. i know a few others will chime in as i have not really had to do to much work with our two.

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arooroomom
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 7:30 pm

This is all speculation as I don't know you, haven't seen your relationship with Nikolai, not met him....

The nastiness is probably "reserved" for you because you are the one who provides all these things for him. As doing that you're probably the one who enforces the most rules, am I correct? You're the biggest challenge and it seems he wants to take you up on it sometimes. When you went into the yard to herd him in (body blocking is GREAT btw) were you behind him? Or were you still walking towards him? If you were behind him he probably reacted how he did thinking he was being "attacked." From what i've seen with my dogs they get pretty "primitive" and extremely focused when they're either eating a meal or chewing a bone. Coming up behind them or coming directly at them can sometimes catch them in a more "primitive" sort of mindset where you are no longer the provider, but the threat. After the incident took place, he snapped out of it and ran to hide.

Since Nikolai is possessive I would remove any and all "free access" to toys or bones. These now must be seriously earned and he MUST relinquish them at YOUR request. The next time he has a bone, would it not be possible to have him leave it and call him to you?

As for the moving issue... I understand he is sensitive around the neck. Could it be possible for him to wear a leash/collar all the time so it would be safe to remove him from an undesirable place by the leash? There's also the place command. While you're eating/watching tv whatever (doing something that you're in a room for a extended period of him and he wants to join you... you can get a mat (a crate sleeper works well) and have him only be on the mat. That way he is allowed to be in your presence, but must be where you tell him to be. Having a mat makes it a lot easier to do.

Other than seriously try to control his outbursts by eliminating or controlling the things that cause him to become possessive... I would step up NILF as well as work on his obedience. If you could also safely work on handling him with a collar that would be beneficial too. Constantly working his mind and making him work for everything will really hit home for him that these are the rules which must be followed.

Contacting a behaviorist may be necessary to really fine tune the training.

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CoffeeK8
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 7:51 pm

I was still walking toward him, we were facing each other when he attacked me. :-(

Yup, I am totally the dog disciplinarian in our house. Chris would let him get away with murder... he's never had a dog before, so he's still *really* new to all things dog-related. He takes all his dog parenting cues from me.

Yup, free-access to toys has been taken away (as of last night). The yard bone has been bagged and put away... Last night I gave him a Kong to work on while we ate dinner, but once that was done, I picked it up, cleaned it out and put it back in his closet, with the rest of his toys.

"Place" might be a really good command for him to learn. He's AWFUL at stay and recall though. When we're watching TV or dinking around on the computer, he typically curls up on the sofa with us. When he gets too hot, he either moves to his blanket on the floor, or his dog bed in the kitchen/dining room that overlooks it all.

We have paid for (but been unable to attend) an 8 week Beginners Obedience training course at PetSmart... I'll have to look them up again and see if we can make it work soon.
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyThu Feb 24, 2011 10:06 pm

You're not the only ones! Mya is what I like to say "bitchy" too!!! Especially with my hubby Jenn! She's ok with me for the most part, but with him it's a different story. He too tries to hug her and give her kisses and she gladly accepts them, but then when he moves away growls at him..LOL. She's bit him, not hard, but has like twice since we've had her. We got her as a baby though. I know it's partly his fault. I say this because when she was like 8months and in that crazy rebellious stage he didn't know how to correct her (he had NEVER had a dog...for a husky to be the 1st...yeah...hard!). I've always had dogs so i would tell him what to do and not to do, but of course he didn't listen. I think she has major resentment toward him for screaming at her and pulling her in the crate when she was younger. I doubt she will ever change with him. She does love him, don't get me wrong...she attacks him with kisses in the morning... but she has limited tolerance for him. He's so different with Kody that it's not even funny!!! He's learned the proper way to train a dog so he's not that way with her anymore. So not fair to my Mya!
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Huskyluv
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyFri Feb 25, 2011 2:16 pm

You've received a lot of great advice already, I'd pretty much follow everything that Kristina has mentioned. Especially leaving a lead attached to him when he's got access to his food/bones and toys and any other times that he normally aggresses.

Definitely step up the NILIF training but I would also have the husband step up his efforts as well. We are talking about your safety here so that should be a serious wake up call to your husband. I would get him much more involved so that Nikolai sees both of you the same way, as strong leaders who (BOTH) will not tolerate his shenanigans. No more mom doing all the work and dad having all the fun. Nikolai needs to earn everything and his rewards as well as discipline need to come from both of you.

Another thing I would change is when you do need to physically move him, I would do it with a harness rather than a collar as the neck is a sensitive place that can evoke some primal responses from in that it's where they would likely be attacked in a serious altercation that was out to really harm or kill. Think about it, when predators hunt and kill where do they bite to kill? If he already feels threatened or defensive, then handling him by the neck could make things worse. Just a thought.

Honestly, I would seriously think about bringing in a behaviorist if things don't start progressing in a positive way soon. I know you've got one picked out already but I wouldn't wait too long to involve them if the negative behavior continues.

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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyFri Feb 25, 2011 2:35 pm

Thank you guys so much! Hubby and I have decided to go the behaviorist route, even though it is crazy expensive. A couple of things convinced him: 1) his Mom was worried sick about me getting hurt. Score one for an awesome MIL! 2) It's bad he bit me, but it would be horrifically worse if he bit anyone else, god forbid a kid or something... lawsuits are NOT CHEAP, and if he were to really hurt someone, he'd be put down. A relatively small investment up front can save us from $$$$$ and tremendous heartache down the road. 3) Nip this in the bud. Quality of life for all involved will be better if we get this taken care of NOW, not LATER. So... I'm bringing him in for an evaluation this weekend and we'll most likely be enrolling in a group class (manners/obedience) with a few extra sessions 1-on-1.
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyFri Feb 25, 2011 2:42 pm

That sounds like the smart route to take. Let us know how it goes!

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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyFri Feb 25, 2011 2:43 pm

I think that is a great idea Kate! sometimes the money just needs to be spent for piece of mind, i love my MIL as well! i think you both talked about great points as to why to do it NOW! i hope nikolai can still make it to the meet up tomorrow Smile

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CoffeeK8
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyFri Feb 25, 2011 2:57 pm

Thanks - his eval is *bright and early* tomorrow morning, so... I'll post an update when we're back. Jenn - we'll be at the huddle, but probably really late, like 1:45ish. I have a baby shower I kinda have to attend at noon, but I have a rock solid exit-strategy, so I'll be at the huddle. ;-)
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyFri Feb 25, 2011 6:53 pm

Kate, I know a lot of people who have gone to trainers and behaviorists and while issues are fixed outside of them home... some people tend to have issues while in the home or yard. Will this person be coming to the house? Or could they? I'd highly suggest that.

Hope all works well!

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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyFri Feb 25, 2011 7:04 pm

Yup, this person does do in-home behavior evaluations and training. We're going to her just for an initial meet and talk - it's free and within a half mile of our house. I want to make sure she's got a similar training philosophy to my own, so I don't end up paying someone who might undo all the good I think we've done. ;-) I'm pretty sure she's awesome (she was recommended by another volunteer with our rescue), but I will definitely talk to her about doing the 1-on-1s at our house, because that seems to be where his issues arise.
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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptySat Feb 26, 2011 8:52 pm

Update?

I'm sorry I haven't commented yet on this thread. My time has been crazy busy with work. However, I don't think that I could give more advice than what has already been given. You've got some great stuff to work with.

All I will say is that my mother and father recently adopted a dog with similar issues and they got an in-home behaviorist to come and work with them. However, he didn't say much different than what's already been said. They've been consistent and put their training into action and it's made a WORLD of difference, but even months later he's not 100%. It takes a lot of time nad patience.

I don't know Nikolai's background, but he sounds like an insecure little pup, none of which is your fault and it sounds like you've been doing great work to correct it. I too would step up NILIF and start EVERY day with a clean slate. Don't let previous slip ups tarnish your positive outlook because he will pick up on this fear and it could do more harm than good.

One thing that we constantly do with ours is desensitize the neck area. When they are calm and relaxed (no toys nearby), I will come up and pet them, then crawl on top of them and cuddle with them, all the time petting their necks and nuzzling them on the neck and telling them what good dogs they are. If he is hesitant about his neck now, this is not something I'd do right away, but gradually work your way up to it. Start by coming up to him when he's calm (sleepy, not in a dead sleep) and just petting him, praising him. Do this a few times, then gradually get closer as he gets used to each interaction. Then eventually crawl over him, etc. I'm sure there will be times you can do this as it sounds like 90% of the time he's happy and relaxed with you all. But activities like this that are calm, controlled and gentle can help them relax when neck contact is involved. I would also keep the collar on inside the house at all times.

Hope it's getting better and we're here for you!

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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptySun Feb 27, 2011 2:18 pm

How did the evaluation go?

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PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptySun Feb 27, 2011 9:03 pm

OK, sorry for the delay - I came down with the creeping crud and have been trying to battle an intensely sore throat, headache, and general crappiness most of yesterday and today.

We had our eval yesterday morning - basically, she agrees that he's moody and bites when we make him do things he doesn't want to do. (BIG SURPRISE Rolling Eyes) In a nutshell, he doesn't respect me as a leader of his pack, so the way to fix it is to give him a job. Train him. We came back a little later and observed/participated in another class... we did lots of walking in a circle, learning to heel (he's been a relatively free-range, retractable leash dog until now), sitting a LOT, learning to stay, etc. We both have to change our body language (we "hover" and that's threatening to him)... In her assessment, she's decided Chris isn't a good leader and Nikolai has no idea what he wants, which in turn stresses him out. While Chris was working with him, she had everyone sit, Nikolai wasn't having it, so she told him to "make him, by gently lifting the leash and pushing on his behind." For the first time ever, he nipped at Chris. Apparently, I am "overly confident" in what I think Nikolai can do, so she needs to "bring me down a few notches" so Nikolai will understand my expectations of him. (Oh, and she called me *mean* because he's "obviously underfed and doesn't have enough muscle mass" - which totally pissed me off... seriously, I'm not mean and the dog doesn't like to eat, as in consistently wastes what I give him, and besides, I feel like the bookworm poster child of positive training - MEAN isn't what I do!!). Long story, very short, she said we need to learn how to handle him and his biting me and misbehavior is just a reaction to us sending him mixed messages... At the end of our class, she gave us homework with orders to return to class next weekend. Rather than go home and talk about it, process what we'd just been through, and maybe talk to the other behaviorist I'd picked out, I signed the Training Contract and paid the first half of his tuition. I'm gonna attribute that to being sick and drugged up, seriously impressionable, and after having been bossed around for an hour, had no willpower to say no. Chris let me because he thought it's what I wanted. *sigh*

No sooner than the door shut and we were walking to the car, Chris has dubbed her the "dog Nazi" and now Nikolai won't touch food. The last meal he ate was Friday night. :-( This is not the outcome I was hoping for.
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I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) Empty
PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) EmptyMon Feb 28, 2011 6:40 pm

I can't give any better advice that what everyone else has said and I don't know this dog's background. However, I can tell you one thing that helped with my husband's lab. She was seriously threatened by me and my alphaness. She was always afraid that I would take her food or bone away. She would growl and posture quite threateningly to the point I was afraid of a bite. I taught her trade. She gives up what she has and gets something better in return. During training, I give her back what she had after she gets the good treat so she was getting a double yummy. After many months of working on this, she has no fear of me near her goodies and we have no problems. I am careful when I take things from her, speak quietly and sweetly so I don't scare her, and I always give it back or something better.
I've also used the food lure technique to move a dog who is afraid. Being forceful with them doesn't help. If you can find anything this dog likes, he gets it only when you ask him to move and he does it. Try steak, tuna, cheese, hot dogs, anything. I use that to get them into the house when I call, too. Recall is near 90% now, even with distractions. Try Primal dried liver treats. Mine go ga-ga for those.
I applaud your willingness to work with a behaviorist but I would not work with one who said I was mean. That's just not helpful energy. I agree that you have to be the leader of your pack but a fearful dog with a rough background doesn't need to be forced.
When my husky won't eat, she is either not getting enough exercise or enough attention. For her, it is a control thing. She knows I'll make over her and try to get her to eat or give her something really good so she will eat since I worry. I have stopped doing it and she eats well most of the time, as long as she is getting attention otherwise. I have yet to meet a dog who will starve themselves to death.
I hope you can work it out with your dog.
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I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) Empty
PostSubject: Re: I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite)   I guess I'm ready to talk about it. (Dog bite) Empty

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