harrise wrote:

What you did there was based on the Premack Principle; http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Premack

In short, the more likely behavior (GET THE FOX/SQUIRREL/RABBIT) can be used to reinforce the less likely behavior (sit and wait instead of lunging). But the trick is having a constant flow of distractions for efficient training. I still have a problem with rabbits because I can't just come up with one over and over for 20 minutes straight.

With the people/other dogs, my opinion is you're waiting too long to work on your desired behavior. You know it's coming, so get the sit before sled head reacts to others. Be observant of the distance when your dog reacts, catch changes in body language before the flip out comes. Then work on decreasing the distance. (This doesn't work very well if the other dog is also reactive to your presence.)

Thanks! I will start her off the minute I noticed a distraction coming.

Great thread Kate! It's nice to know others are dealing with the same issues.

LMAO! Jenn, you and I are TOTALLY ON THE SAME BOAT!!! With the exception that I'm lucky enough to have to walk them separately because I can't with both of them. Grrr! So, yep, an hour in the am and an hour in the evening. Plus playing with them at home, the gym thing, cooking, cleaning...oh yeah...and the dude that lives with me too LOL!!!

I kind of stopped going to the gym as I walk (sometimes jog) with Ginger as my exercise. I need to get back into the gym tho', but I probably get about 2.5 to 3 miles in walking/jogging EACH day EVERY day...and I do have full time job, pay bills, cook and clean...but I work from home and I dictate my work schedule so that's made it REALLY easy for us to have Ginger...

Yeah, sign me up in the category of "works too darn much." I'm super lucky my darling husband does so much around the house though, because if I were to attempt it alone, I'd fail miserably...

His walk tonight with Chris went really well. He still worked for cheese, didn't pull quite as much, but still had a couple of confused moments where Chris would stop, and instead of sit, he'd jump up and try to "dance." *sigh* It's a learning process.

Anyone here try clicker training? We're thinking that might be a good way to go considering he's not all *that* food motivated, and we're kinda slow with delivery... I know timing is way important in shaping desirable behaviors. ;-)

I thought clicker training incorporates treats also? At least in the beginning, and then you slowly phase out the treats and use only the clicker?

cmanding wrote:

I thought clicker training incorporates treats also? At least in the beginning, and then you slowly phase out the treats and use only the clicker?

Yup - exactly. You start out click-treat until they associate click with "YAY! GOOD!" then you phase out treats and just click. ;-)

ETA: And Click-TREAT!! at the end.

CoffeeK8 wrote:

cmanding wrote:

I thought clicker training incorporates treats also? At least in the beginning, and then you slowly phase out the treats and use only the clicker?

Yup - exactly. You start out click-treat until they associate click with "YAY! GOOD!" then you phase out treats and just click. ;-)

So if Nikolai isn't food motivated all that much, wouldn't you have the same success as you would now with what you're doing? Meaning, Nikolai would sometimes respond and sometimes not?

If I remember correctly, you also mentioned that your delivery wasn't all that great on timing and that you might be a little slow on delivery? Wouldn't clicker training also depend on timing?

I think maybe you should give it a little more time with the homework the dog behaviorist gave you. Switching training methods too soon without giving him and yourselves enough time might confuse Nikolai more than get results. I think you started with your homework from the dog behaviorist just this week, correct? It hasn't even been a week with your current training method.

Remember, this will take TIME and PATIENCE. And don't forget, it took me a MONTH...EVERY day going at it 3-4 times a day each time at least 20 minutes with Ginger....that's at least an hour every day for a month until Ginger walked on a loose lead and sat at every corner before crossing....you're not even a week in your homework.

You're smart enough and good enough and by golly people like you!


Give yourself time and be patient....

I'm not starting anything new until we can survive these coming 8-9 weeks. The trainer wants us to pretty much NOT use any treats to reinforce behavior right now... just use it to lure him into what we want, but not actually give it. That seems kinda cruel and unusual - how is he supposed to know that he's doing something right if he's not actually being rewarded for it? Maybe these are just issues I need to be talking over with the trainer lady.

Tara is also in a class with her and Spirit (the husky she trapped on Valentine's) - so we're gonna get together tonight to go for a walk and work on our homework. :-)

CoffeeK8 wrote:

The trainer wants us to pretty much NOT use any treats to reinforce behavior right now... just use it to lure him into what we want, but not actually give it. That seems kinda cruel and unusual - how is he supposed to know that he's doing something right if he's not actually being rewarded for it?

WOW. So what does the trainer say to use as a reward?

I'll go ahead and speak my mind. lol I think not using treats is a bunch of BS and teasing a dog with food and NOT giving it to them for the desired behavior is just asking for the dog to lash out and do more bad behavior. Imagine someone doing that to you...most of us would probably punch that person in the face and take what we rightfully deserved. Those treats are like Nikolai's paycheck so to speak. When you stop getting your paycheck at work are you going to keep working for your employer?

Honestly, I wouldn't listen to the trainer on that rule and it really makes me wonder how good this trainer is.


Anyway, I use a clicker but I never phase out the treat. Huskies are too smart for that, as soon as the treats stop accompanying the click he will stop listening to it. Honestly, I've never heard of phasing out the treats in clicker training. The click is the precursor to the real reward and gives you the ability to mark the behavior instantly...at least a lot faster than digging out a treat. Clicker training is fantastic but I would never ever fade out the reward that comes after. You could wait until your dog has completed a series of commands but at the end I would always treat. The click marks the behavior, so the click is not the reward in and of itself. I promise you, no dog that I have ever known would follow commands for the sake of hearing a click. They're in it for what follows the click.

While I do love clicker training, I find it easier to train simple things without a clicker and I mainly use the clicker for more complex tricks.

Huskyluv wrote:

CoffeeK8 wrote:

The trainer wants us to pretty much NOT use any treats to reinforce behavior right now... just use it to lure him into what we want, but not actually give it. That seems kinda cruel and unusual - how is he supposed to know that he's doing something right if he's not actually being rewarded for it?

WOW. So what does the trainer say to use as a reward?

I'll go ahead and speak my mind. lol I think not using treats is a bunch of BS and teasing a dog with food and NOT giving it to them for the desired behavior is just asking for the dog to lash out and do more bad behavior. Imagine someone doing that to you...most of us would probably punch that person in the face and take what we rightfully deserved. Those treats are like Nikolai's paycheck so to speak. When you stop getting your paycheck at work are you going to keep working for your employer?

Honestly, I wouldn't listen to the trainer on that rule and it really makes me wonder how good this trainer is.
...

Val, you and I are totally on the same page here. In class, while he was working with Chris and not getting rewarded, he ended up nipping at Chris for the first time while he was being "made to" sit. This is what sent me into a whole "OMG, WTF have I *DONE*" all-out panic and why I'm skeptical (to say the least) about this trainer... I have an ongoing email conversation with the person who recommended her, and I'm taking our homework and lessons one step at a time. A little more digging (after I'd already signed the contract) reveals that SHE's not the behaviorist - her husband/business partner is and he's in Alaska right now, training for the Iditerod or something like that. *sigh* We're going to class again on Saturday, but if I'm still feeling like I'm gonna cry (she's very abrasive and sort of bullies US), I'm going to have Chris take Nikolai home and I'll camp out and talk to her until I can get our money back and go somewhere else. I really don't think it'd be good for her business to keep us on as unhappy customers. I am totally willing to work with Nikolai (which is why I *am* doing his homework), but I am treating him for every good repetition and researching Clicker training, as a way to mark all his good behaviors and give him a very high-value treat/reward/prize at the end of short training sessions (instead of 15 little things he's sorta blah on, ONE treat filled Kong with awesomeness). And again, this is for down the road, not right now.

I'm not usually a reader, but this past week, I've been catching up on back-issues of The Whole Dog Journal and reading Pat Miller's Power of Positive Training and re-reading Jean Donaldson's Mine!. I've got a head full of awesome info, just need to get Chris on the same page, work out the kinks with this trainer lady, and go about it all the right way.

Wow, if you end up dropping out of class I would try to get some of your money back at least. That is so wrong and misrepresentation if she's acting as though she's a behaviorist when it's actually her husband. Something is very suspect there. I'm not suggesting that she's all bad or anything, I'm sure she knows a good bit and has probably made some good suggestions to you and Chris but there are warning flags waving in the breeze is all.

I have to commend you for all the reading and planning ahead you're doing as well as taking so much time and responsibility for correcting Nikolai's issues. It is so refreshing to see.

I'm still kicking myself for signing UP for the class in the first place. I mean, I was in like, the WORST possible place to be making big decisions like that. I'm sick. I was on DayQuil (which tends to make me loopy) and the place had dogs barking like fiends in the back (boarding for their board/train program) and HER dog was locked in her office barking/whining, apparently with a split and bleeding tail that needed to be amputated to a vertibrae, and... then going through a class (it was an AKC Good Citizen Refresher - advanced level) that she was clearly stressed and probably not at her best, I was stressed/sick/drugged/tired and not at my best... she spent an hour barking orders at me and Chris (then telling me I'm "mean" and my dog is "clearly underfed and lacking muscle mass" and that Chris is a "weak leader") *sigh* Sorta like boot camp, where they rip you down and build you back up? Maybe. I'm not good with those kinds of things. I think Saturday will be more of a real view of what's going on, and I will take the time to process with Chris before paying the second half of the class fee - and if we're both unhappy, I'm gonna bail. There's no need to be this miserable.

ETA: And NIKOLAI is clearly unhappy, too. He was not a happy camper while there and he didn't eat much of anything until last night (last meal was Friday before his assessment on Saturday - Tuesday night: almost 4 days!). If he's going to go on a hunger strike because he's anxious/nervy/unhappy, etc... we need to find another way to train him. Period.

ok, so this is just ME...
but....if the husband is the behaviorist, and he's the one with specific experience training huskies (which should like he does if he's training for the Iditerod or something) i would put the training there on hold until he comes back...but that's if you cannot get your money back, or money that you haven't used in training yet...unless of course he's not back for a while...

if you're not happy with this woman, you're not happy, and it'll reflect in your attempt to train/work with Nikolai and he'll sense it...

i'm sorry that you're dealing with this...

cmanding wrote:

ok, so this is just ME...
but....if the husband is the behaviorist, and he's the one with specific experience training huskies (which should like he does if he's training for the Iditerod or something) i would put the training there on hold until he comes back...but that's if you cannot get your money back, or money that you haven't used in training yet...unless of course he's not back for a while...

if you're not happy with this woman, you're not happy, and it'll reflect in your attempt to train/work with Nikolai and he'll sense it...

i'm sorry that you're dealing with this...

Good call. I'll keep that in my head as a "concession" - because an 8 week, basic training course at PetSmart (which DOES use positive methods) is only $120, not $500. I (blindly) assumed that the super-extra $$$ of class was for increased/better education and experience (behaviorist). If that's not the case, I'll just go to PetSmart, or do the $350 for an assessment and two in-home visits from a real, certified behaviorist.

Huskyluv wrote:

I have to commend you for all the reading and planning ahead you're doing as well as taking so much time and responsibility for correcting Nikolai's issues. It is so refreshing to see.

Aww, thank you! Any resources you'd point me to? I'm on a mission, here...
(Oh, and in our assessment, I mentioned that like, 30 years ago, my Dad used to train huskies for a kennel who showed them and that that's where I'd probably picked up my "overconfidence" in dog training - so then, later, she got on me about how *I'm* the one using "old methods" and that *I* had a lot to learn) *blink blink* Ummm... Ok...

LOL Sorry, I don't have resources to point you to but you sound like you've got a good handle on what you're doing and a level head on your shoulders. Similar to what Claudia mentioned, do what you feel best and most comfortable doing. All three of you will be better for it.

Thanks! :-)

Hope the training/walking has been getting better!

We're putting training on hold until we can get some stuff straightened out with this place... There's just some stuff that doesn't jive with me or Chris, so we're going to do some checking before we continue.