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 The complexities of Diabetes

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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyMon Aug 24, 2020 2:11 pm

So we have been treating kenzi with 12cc vetsulin twice a day for 10 days now. She's in currently for her glucose curve. Leaving her at the vet was quite the spectacle. She cried, tried to pull the vet tech down, and in general had a panic attack. I expect a grumpy puppy upon her return. Two things have been hurting my head since this started:

1. Diet. Going through cancer with keno carbs have been the enemy because carbs create sugar which feeds cancer. In my head for diabetes the same carbs that create sugar should be bad, but looking at other people going through diet research for diabetic dogs carbs are coming up as "good" as they carry insulin. The initial thinking when you have a dog with high blood sugar is the cut the thing that makes the sugar that the dog can't process, but others say to give them the carbs that makes the sugar because the carbs carry the insulin that manages the sugar. And my head wants to explode. She's been eating Dr Harvey's Paradigm with keno since the diagnosis. I was hoping today would give some clue as to if the diet is doing anything. At least until I ran across information about thing two.

2. Intact or incorrectly spayed females. Kenzi has a botched spay. She has a red heat (bleeds) and a silent heat (no bleeding) plus false pregnancies. It is highly likely an intact or poorly spayed female that has fluctuating hormones can be managed. This is something I have seen pop up with others who have had issues with it and the insulin meds website suggests spaying due to progesterone interference with the drug.

So now I'm in a spot I'm not sure what to think. Do I continue with the low carb diet, or switch? Is it all going to be moot because she has heat cycles? Obviously gotta wait for her curve results but ugh...what a pain.


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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyMon Aug 24, 2020 4:39 pm

That "carbs carry the insulin needed" does not make sense. Do you have any references for that?
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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyMon Aug 24, 2020 5:08 pm

Unless that's referring to glycemic index?
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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 8:23 am

So im probably wrong but i thought the issue is starches not carbs. And yes i know all starches are carbs but not all carbs are starches.
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 11:44 am

I do not have a reference for the statement of carbs carry insulin. It's just something that has popped up several times in my various research. I think a more accurate statement would be that carbs even out insulin injections. The Vetsulin site states "Foods high in complex carbohydrates and fiber help glucose to be released evenly in your dog's body." From what I've seen so far the recommendation is 25-30% carbs. (I'm feeding under 10% total carbs, I believe) Under 5% of those carbs should be starchy carbs, so you are on track with starches being an issue. When doing low carb for cancer it's the same thing. You don't give high sugar/starch carbs. No peas or carrots. Fat is the enemy in diabetes but can be good in cancer patients.

So according to my vet yesterday's glucose curve went well and she doesn't want to change anything. We will return to do it again in 30 days. As a reminder Kenzi read 410 at 3:30pm 10 days prior.

6:45 12 units Vetsulin followed by breakfast
7:45 306
9:45 223
11:45 174
1:45 207

For reference, a normal diabetic dog runs between 60-100. A diabetic dog should not be brought down to a normal dog range because they could crash quickly and you wouldn't have any time to try to bring your dog's sugar back up before it was too late. The goal is to stay under 250 for as much of the day as possible.

Being a half day curve that ended before the time of day in which we had the original high reading leaves me questioning how well the insulin really is working. I am considering buying a meter and doing a home curve so I can see where she really is at before it's meal time again since she is still several hours from the next injection at the end of this curve.

The insulin we are currently on is Vetsulin which doesn't dose evenly. It will bring glucose down fairly fast then taper off. A switch to Novolin that doesn't do that could potentially change the food needs and work better with very low carb diets I think. While she seems to be tracking relatively even I guess right now it will be necessary for me to monitor her when she hits her next heat cycle to see if she rings true to what has been stated about regulating unspayed females. Stress can also play a role in what reading a vet office may get so a home curve over a full day span is really necessary for a true picture.

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amymeme
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amymeme

Female Join date : 2013-12-20

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 12:36 pm

Welp. If someone has to have a diabetic dog, better someone with your tenacity, willingness to understand and monitor. Still... You have my sympathies on needing to do this. Glad her numbers looked good at the vet.
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 3:16 pm

I did a search on the site and didn't see where too many of our members have had to deal with diabetes even though it is a growing issue for dogs. Chances are eventually others may have the same challenge I am so figured it best to do some documentation in case someone else is met with the same thing and has questions, or if someone else comes along with more knowledge than I and can shed some light or offer some advice then it's got a place to go that can be found.

Luckily we haven't had the cataract issues to the level that others have. I'm hoping catching it early and taking care of it will keep us from having to deal with any of that.

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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 3:25 pm

My luck shadow will end up diabetic. He already has pannus, pra, and hip issues.

So if you got a glucose monitor does it work the same as in people. I just wonder because of the one that you stick on and lasts 14 days
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 4:40 pm

I don't believe the stick on monitors will work for dogs. The monitors have to be calibrated for dogs to read them and I don't know if you can do open calibrations on those, though it would be super handy to not have to prick her and then give her shots on top of it, which has been my hesitation on doing the at-home monitoring very much. Some folks do with their dogs just the same as people where they will test their glucose and then apply dosage based on the reading rather than a set dosage every time. Some dogs need higher doses at night for some reason too. Some of the hand-held monitors come with a setting in them that works for dogs, but you have to make sure that you use it. The human setting will give you some wonky numbers if used on a dog.

I have worried about Kye. He's on the pred which will wreck his system eventually and he is very difficult to keep weight off of. Kenzi's body is basically wearing out, especially with having the botched spay that can cause insulin issues, and we think that is ultimately what caused her to become diabetic. Things just happen with age and stop working properly. Kye I just have issues with weight on. He's got so many health issues it's hard to do what is needed to manage his weight as I normally would with exercise and he's already restricted on diet. When I get the hand-held monitor I may do a curve on him out of curiosity and to have a baseline in case things ever change. I wish I had a pre-diabetes baseline on kenzi.

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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 9:27 pm

So im gonna do some research but if a human monitor can be calibrated for dogs then the stick on one hypothetically could use a ...(i want to say port but it seems wrong) of the non stick on variety. The trick would be to flash the chip without messing with the blue tooth. I wonder if freestyle libre is open source.
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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyTue Aug 25, 2020 10:39 pm

@twisterII so freestyle libre is dog compatible https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5094557/&ved=2ahUKEwibqsbL3bfrAhVYG80KHZQCAZIQFjAEegQIDhAK&usg=AOvVaw1dBZU-sXIJmV_-_Ij6n3Ld
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TwisterII
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Senior
TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 5:15 pm

that is interesting. Now I'm going to have to dig around and see if anyone has managed to do this outside a study. Man, that would be handy. Bet it would be pricey. Hmm....

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Lostmaniac
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Lostmaniac

Female Join date : 2018-10-22
Location : Colorado

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyWed Aug 26, 2020 5:45 pm

Videos all over youtube on both the dog and the cat. You do have to keep the area shaved.
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyThu Aug 27, 2020 11:38 am

Seems they are best used for a two curve and to get night curves but not a viable option for long term use. A few people in another group have used them and they struggled with accuracy. Some vets seem to be challenged getting them calibrated. I have to keep kenzi's shoulders shaved where I give her her current shots because I can't give them well through her fur. Darn dog got skinny enough it's hard to get a hold of her skin well enough to shoot under it.

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sibhus
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Join date : 2013-10-02

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptySat Sep 19, 2020 1:13 am

Sorry to hear what your going through. I haven't logged on in a while but saw your post and thought id chime in as I went through something similar but far worse with a prior husky and its not an easy thing to endure but something we do for the love of our dogs.

For starters, do not have your vet do a BG curve at the vets hospital. Your dog will undergo stress and anxiety and probably not finish his food as well as not get the exercise or walk he may during the 12 hours he spends with your vet. I have done a tremendous amount of testing with my current diabetic Husky and have noticed 50-100 point peaks due to anxiety and stress which at a vets office might be compensated by overdosing as well as an inaccurate curve due to the stress eventually stabilizing. You should try to do a BG curve at home, you'll get great advise at the K9diabetes forum. Im on there and many others whom are dealing with a diabetic dog.

I have a writeup on the forum about the freestyle libre sensors. Sadly a dogs blood plasma is different than a humans so in some cases there will be an offset error. Funny thing is one of my libre sensors was within 15 points of the AT2 meter and another sensor was off by 100 points. Its a good idea to try it and then compare it to a AT2 meter to gauge the accuracy.

As to cancer, depending on where and the mitotic rate, you can sometimes manage it with raw diet, or natural foods ie fish, veggies and other real ingredients not starch binding dog food that most of us give our dogs. My prior husky had 3 simultaneous malignant tumors, diabetes, arthritis and was given 3 months to live, she ended up living for another 2.5 years as I had her on the raw diet, gave her tons of fish oil and colloidal silver, all of which are natural supplements to boost the immune system.

I would not get hung up on carbs, they are necessary even for diabetic and cancer enduring dogs as its fuel for the body, I think your on the right path by keeping it below 30%. The most important thing is to manage the diabetes by keeping your overall sugar levels manageable such that it doesn't influence and hence feed the cancer with excess sugar.

Good luck with hang in there.
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TwisterII
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TwisterII

Female Join date : 2013-06-14
Location : Missouri

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PostSubject: Re: The complexities of Diabetes    The complexities of Diabetes  EmptyMon Sep 21, 2020 1:06 pm

Kenzi has her second vet curve and check in tomorrow. Going to recheck her liver enzymes since they were not good when we first started. I have the Advocate Pet Test to do home curves to compare to her stressed vet curve. I am also thinking about changing her food. The Dr harvey's is proving unreliable to get shipped at times. Prefer to keep her raw but other premixes are either over the carb rating I want or the one that meets the preferred carbs is as unreliable to get a hold of as the Dr harvey's. Still thinking on that situation. I simply don't have time to home mix anymore.

Started her on a B12 vitamin to hopefully help with hind end weakness. She isn't super weak in the rear but just weak enough that she can no longer make the jump onto the bed. That doesn't bother her in the summer when it's hot but come winter it frustrates her when she can't get in bed and then she sits at the base and makes a squeaking noise. She's also on Bilberry for her eyes.

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