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 Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?

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Taja Siberians
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Taja Siberians

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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 1:18 pm

One of our previous litters surprised us. We originally believed three of the five puppies were jet black heavily masked puppies. We were annoyed for months by the fact that these three were so difficult to get a decent picture of, as many pics made the dogs appear deep copper red instead of jet black. When they matured into their adult coat we finally figured out why. They have the triple banded guard hairs and dark undercoat of an agouti. The base is cream. The center is red. The tips are black.
In regular light or at a distance, all three of mine and several half siblings by the same sire all appear jet black. Up close or in the right lighting, they take on a deep mahogany glow and almost look like a mink. Here are some pics of one of the girls.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Eva02110

This is Diva. (The black female on the left) You can see here how dark she appears to be.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Diva_f10

Another side picture of Diva. You can just see a slight reddish tint to her rear where the lighting was brighter. This is how dark she appears in most lighting.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Coat10

This is a close up showing the banding of her guard hairs in bright sun

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Coat211

and here is a picture of her outside in the sun where you can see the banded effect of her coat. She looks like a mink here.

This isn't dead or sun-damaged coat. It is soft and plush.
and she isn't just a dark red dog as she has very clear black points, no liver.

The most interesting thing is the banded guard hairs are only from behind the ears back. The coat on her head and face is jet black or white.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Img_5610

Would love to see pics if anyone else has a Siberian with similar dark agouti coloration.  sunny


Last edited by Taja Siberians on Sun Feb 02, 2014 5:20 pm; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Forgot the last picture)
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tiffany
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 4:31 pm

I have seen a few with the same coloring.

But I didn't think that 'black phase' or 'red phase' agouti was a correct term when describing the coloring. I have only seen byb use emphasize something rare or different.
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Taja Siberians
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 4:39 pm

Black phase agouti is the only term I have heard applied to an agouti this dark and I haven't seen many of them. The ones I have seen pictures of were on racing teams, not byb websites, but please share the links if you know of others. I am curious what the bybs are describing as black or red phase agouti as well.
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WolvenSight
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 4:42 pm

Someone recently posted a similar topic on all black huskies. I don't have one but here are some pics of dark/agouti huskies. Very unique colors.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 3-gen10
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 104_0410
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Gazer_10
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Taja Siberians
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 4:46 pm

Yes, the Sno-Magic line (the agoutis in the first pic) is in the pedigree of this litter on the sire's side. They are not as dark but this is where the marking likely comes through in the pedigree.
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tiffany
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 4:52 pm

I lost the links a while ago due to a computer crash. but i want to say it was something husky ranch or puppy ranch or something like that. they used the terms to describe some of their reds and a a couple of their black dogs.

I was under the impression that agouti was agouti regardless of how light/dark.
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WolvenSight
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 4:53 pm

I almost got a pup from that breeder but the timing of another breeder was better so I didn't. I have met another darker sib from that breeder and it was really cool looking. I have seen other members on the site with darker sibs or agouti coloring. Very awesome look.
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Taja Siberians
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 4:56 pm

If anyone has pics of a "red-phase" agouti as well, I would love to see them. I haven't seen this or heard the term at all until today.
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Taja Siberians
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 5:11 pm

This is a litter brother of the girl I posted above. Grimm has a longer coat so the band of red is less obvious unless you dive in and look for it. Most would think he is just a jet black and white dog.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Grimmr10

Very black in the shade.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Grimm010

Not as easy to see the red here as his coat is longer and he was also starting to blow

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Grimm011

This one shows it a little better since the coat on his ruff stands out more.
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tiffany
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 6:05 pm

To be I would say black and white. I have seen numerous huskies that have banded hair and the agouti gene is prevalent in most huskies. 'Black phase' isn't even listed as a color you can register a husky for, its just agouti. I have never seen a breeder aside from the byb ones even use that term, I just knew it from them.

The 'red phase' that I have seen are just red huskies that go through the same color changes as a regular agouti, start out dark, get light with the darker goggles and then go red usually a dirty face.

here is the site I can remember, if you look at all their dogs, some are labeled as red phase
http://www.thepuppyranch.com/
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Taja Siberians
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 6:30 pm

Actually, the agouti gene is not prevalent in most huskies. http://huskycolors.com/agouti.html
I wouldn't call it very rare as the huskycolors website does, but it certainly isn't prevalent. It's just more common in racing lines than in show lines. Yes, other colors have coats with two bands(light at the base and darker at the tip. That is not the agouti gene. Agouti dogs have at least three bands of color, a cream or gray undercoat (instead of a white undercoat) and typically heavier masking on the face. Our agouti dogs have a grey undercoat.

and I'm not certain I understand why you would just call it "black and white", if it is agouti (albeit a very very dark agouti)?? That would create inaccurate records. If someone was doing research into a pedigree multiple generations down the road trying to figure out how they ended up with an agouti puppy in their litter, an inaccurate registration is not going to help them track it down.
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tiffany
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 6:54 pm

Lots of husky puppies are mis labeled as puppies. My agouti boy has turned into a grey/white and I know that several agoutis that have been labeled grey or black upon registering as puppies or labeled agouti and now are grey or black. I know what agouti is and how it is classified. I have been to that website numerous times in my search for a husky and to learn about colors.

If you want to say agouti, then just say agouti, not dark phase or black phase, because that is mis leading, it is just an agouti, albeit darker. I guess I don't see the purpose as to adding terms to the colors, to me that would add confusion.

What is she labeled as on her papers? She is a gorgeous girl and I actually follow Diva on facebook lol
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Taja Siberians
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 7:02 pm

I think I see that I got off on the wrong foot with the "black phase" in the subject line. I agree an agouti is an agouti is an agouti and registration will never really say more than agouti. So my apologies for offending with the extra descriptor.
I guess a subject line asking about "super dark" agoutis would be just as effective. It was described to me as dark-phase, so that was the term I used, but there really is no sense in back and forth over a descriptor. As you said, it is just "agouti" on the registry. Call it whatever you like Wink An agouti by any other name...
But back to the original intent of the post . . . I would love to pics if anyone else also has a dark black agouti.
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tiffany
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 7:06 pm

I guess I have just seen agouti mis used so many times from byb trying to make an extra buck with adding a descriptor to an already 'rare' type color.
But yes, a gorgeous dark coloring it is!
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ChillyBeach
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 8:43 pm

We'll be bringing our new agouti puppy home next weekend.  Will be curious to see how his coat turns out in comparison.

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? H55zo610
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My husky meeka
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 10:27 pm

Chillybeach, your new puppy is gorgeous!
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Niraya
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptySun Feb 02, 2014 10:45 pm

Should join the "Colors of the Siberian Husky" group on facebook.  Debbie Premus (the breeder of my red girl) is very much into coat color genetics and there are, I believe, several discussions on there pertaining to agouti.

I would call her a black/white.  I also don't believe in naming "phases" for agouti..as it's not a color but a gene which would mean that most likely many animals within our breed are genetically "agouti" and it can be tested for via DNA tests through places like VetGen.

(if we relied solely on the number of bands on a hair then my black/white girl would be considered agouti because she has triple banded hairs.  This is of course just an example.  Lots of dogs hairs are banded.  Mechta has banded hairs and shades but she is not something I would call an agouti or even a "phase" agouti.  She will always be a red.  I've seen/known of genetically tested agouti's that don't even have dark faces and look like regular black and whites but DNA does not lie.  So.  Coat color research in our breed is still very young but hopefully that will change one day).

_________________
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Eyes_p10

Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Oil_pa11
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CaliaKisses
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 12:33 am

@Taja, a few questions before my comments:  Do you plan to get the pups tested to see what coat color genetics they carry?  Can you post a close up of the coat?  Does the red become more prevalent before and during a coat blow?


Oddly enough, your interpretation of Diva's colors remind me of coat color in another breed(s), even though it's a different breed the info may help.  The Black and Tan Shiba Inu has similar features in their coats.  They are meant to have black coat that is reddish in certain lights and must have buff/cream roots and undercoat.  A "bluish" black is the wrong shade and not sought after in the breed.  The Shikoku Ken, a cousin breed to the shiba, also has a black and tan coat as well as having 3 shades to their sesame coat (which I think is genetically the same or similar to agouti).  

Here are images of my shikoku girl, Miyu.  In most lights she can look black, but in certain lighting you can see the red in her black and hints of her cream undercoat/roots.  Her black is actually too black for the breed, having areas where the roots are black and her skin blue (instead of white).
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 1507590_10151934633356379_2090381874_n
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 1503857_10151884642491379_1352130258_n
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 1782150_10151947902376379_682525134_n

In the last image she is redder than usual, and her coat is starting to feel clumpy, as she is in the process of early coat blow.  

I'd imagine that if agouti in huskies were to be divided in different phases, it would look something like the 3 shades of sesame in Shikoku.  Sesame comes in black, medium, and red; the percentage of black to red determines what shade the sesame is considered.  Black sesame has more black than red, medium (or just sesame) is 50/50 giving a brown appearance, while red sesame has more red than black.

Here is a black sesame:Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 5109992496_f77deb26e3_z

Here is a red sesame:Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 5110044462_0cb8d25b00_z

And (medium) sesame:Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 5109392459_9ca8c94128_z


Hopefully this info is helpful, and if not well at least there are pretty pictures to look at.  But in my opinion I would consider Diva (and possibly Darka) a Black and Tan, especially since the edges where the white and black meet look to be a tan color (think singed edges of paper) in the pictures.  It is a known color in Sibes, though one not commonly seen.
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Hollyfrost
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 6:35 am

Niraya wrote:
Should join the "Colors of the Siberian Husky" group on facebook.  Debbie Premus (the breeder of my red girl) is very much into coat color genetics and there are, I believe, several discussions on there pertaining to agouti.

Seems like a great group Very Happy I applied!! Smile
(Sorry for OT)
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Taja Siberians
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Taja Siberians

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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 10:54 am

CaliaKisses wrote:
@Taja, a few questions before my comments:  Do you plan to get the pups tested to see what coat color genetics they carry?  Can you post a close up of the coat?  Does the red become more prevalent before and during a coat blow?

No. I really don't see a purpose in testing them genetically for the coat color genes. We know what line it comes from in the pedigree, which is agouti. Everything else is classic irish in traditional colors. So there is no big question about what it is in our minds. I had just never seen it presented so dark. The color was fascinating to me so I wanted to see if anyone else had pics of similar dogs. Diva doesn't live here with us so I can't get additional pics of Diva's coat personally but I can ask her owner if she will send a few when she gets a chance. We don't breed for coat color or pattern.


Oddly enough, your interpretation of Diva's colors remind me of coat color in another breed(s), even though it's a different breed the info may help.  The Black and Tan Shiba Inu has similar features in their coats.  They are meant to have black coat that is reddish in certain lights and must have buff/cream roots and undercoat.  A "bluish" black is the wrong shade and not sought after in the breed.  The Shikoku Ken, a cousin breed to the shiba, also has a black and tan coat as well as having 3 shades to their sesame coat (which I think is genetically the same or similar to agouti).  

Here are images of my shikoku girl, Miyu.  In most lights she can look black, but in certain lighting you can see the red in her black and hints of her cream undercoat/roots.  Her black is actually too black for the breed, having areas where the roots are black and her skin blue (instead of white).
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 1507590_10151934633356379_2090381874_n
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 1503857_10151884642491379_1352130258_n
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 1782150_10151947902376379_682525134_n

In the last image she is redder than usual, and her coat is starting to feel clumpy, as she is in the process of early coat blow.  

I'd imagine that if agouti in huskies were to be divided in different phases, it would look something like the 3 shades of sesame in Shikoku.  Sesame comes in black, medium, and red; the percentage of black to red determines what shade the sesame is considered.  Black sesame has more black than red, medium (or just sesame) is 50/50 giving a brown appearance, while red sesame has more red than black.

Here is a black sesame:Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 5109992496_f77deb26e3_z

Here is a red sesame:Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 5110044462_0cb8d25b00_z

And (medium) sesame:Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 5109392459_9ca8c94128_z


Hopefully this info is helpful, and if not well at least there are pretty pictures to look at.  But in my opinion I would consider Diva (and possibly Darka) a Black and Tan, especially since the edges where the white and black meet look to be a tan color (think singed edges of paper) in the pictures.  It is a known color in Sibes, though one not commonly seen.

First let me say your dogs are beautiful and I can see exactly what you mean about the coat looking very similar to the black sesame with that hint of red showing through. I agree it does look quite similar. I know what you mean about the black and tan Siberians as we had one for about two years.
Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? 6halfw10

Darka and Diva do not have the same tan points that the puppy above had. To some extent many Siberians have that buff/reddish "blend" between color and white.
Even cookie cutter grey and white Siberians can have this just above the hock and in other patches.

Thank you for sharing pics of your dogs though. All very beautiful Smile
I think one thing that I found most interesting is that in Shikoku you can say "Black sesame" Sesame and "Red Sesame" but stating "black agouti" or "red agouti" is offensive.
Go figure.
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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 12:25 pm

Taja Siberians wrote:

Thank you for sharing pics of your dogs though. All very beautiful Smile
I think one thing that I found most interesting is that in Shikoku you can say "Black sesame" Sesame and "Red Sesame" but stating "black agouti" or "red agouti" is offensive.
Go figure.
[/b]

I should probably mention, the only dog that is mine is the black and tan in the beginning. All of the others are show pics of Shikoku located in Japan. As far as the 3 shades of sesame, those were made separate in the standard so I guess that's where the difference is Wink


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Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? Empty
PostSubject: Re: Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one?   Black Phase Agouti - Anyone else have one? EmptyMon Feb 03, 2014 1:42 pm

CaliaKisses wrote:

 As far as the 3 shades of sesame, those were made separate in the standard so I guess that's where the difference is Wink



Ah! That makes much more sense to me. If it is called out in the standard, I can understand the wider acceptance of the terms. Smile Thank you for clarifying that. Your black and tan is very pretty but thank you for sharing all of the pics.

M
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